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View Full Version : Int Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (3) Sting vs. (7) El Santo


klunderbunker
04-10-2013, 08:26 AM
This is a fourth round match in the International Region. It is a 60 Minute Iron Man Match match held under International Rules, meaning the match is held under the standard rules of the country the match is held in. It will be held at the Arena Mexico in Mexico City, Mexico. Assume one week has passed since the second round match.

http://rudosneza.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/arena-mexico.jpg

Iron Man Match Rules: This is a sixty minute match with standard rules. The most falls in 60 minutes wins. A fall can be earned by pinfall, submission, countout or disqualification.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jbC6MyHJ78w/TSlGlHlurfI/AAAAAAAAARE/-4Nov3WlkI8/s1600/42.jpg

#3. Sting

Vs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Mascara_El_Santo.jpg/220px-Mascara_El_Santo.jpg

#7. El Santo



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

Poop Master Flex
04-10-2013, 11:18 AM
Santo wins, don't even have to think about this one. He has gotten EXTREMELY lucky considering he keeps drawing Mexico City for his matches and if I voted him over The freaking Rock last round I can't in good conscience go against him this time around.

Sting is facing the Hulk Hogan of Mexico (and not heel Hogan either), a guy who had mad cross over appeal and made a living in an era that going an hour was common. Obviously Sting can go an hour but he just got the rotten luck of fighting one of the top stars of all time in his own backyard, it's like fighting Race in Kansas City, Hogan in New York or Rikidozan in Japan, it's just too much of an obstacle to climb.

In a regular 1 on 1 match I may take Sting but in a 60 minute Iron Man Match where someone has to win I just don't see it happening, any angle I look at points directly to El Santo winning this match.

El Santo wins.

FitFinlay4Life
04-10-2013, 04:17 PM
Santo has his feel good victory over last years tournament winner, the Rock. And it was a very hard fought victory with the Mexican legend just edging the Great One 50:48.

On the other side of the tournament Sting had an easy passage past Kurt Angle (60:15).

Sting would win this! Why? Because Santo has a way to lose strong - he's already had one tough match and he can play the weakened hero for the 60 minutes who will not give up but, ultimately come up short against the bigger stronger fresher Stinger. This is the last bout in Mexico and, while El Santo is the home country hero here, we move to some other part of the World after this and Sting is easily the bigger global star.

Sting get's the deciding fall in the dying moments and there is a show of respect in the ring between the two after but the Stinger moves onto face either Sammartino (most likely) or Vader in the next venue.

Thriller Ant
04-10-2013, 04:24 PM
Santo has his feel good victory over last years tournament winner, the Rock. And it was a very hard fought victory with the Mexican legend just edging the Great One 50:48.

On the other side of the tournament Sting had an easy passage past Kurt Angle (60:15).

Sting would win this! Why? Because Santo has a way to lose strong - he's already had one tough match and he can play the weakened hero for the 60 minutes who will not give up but, ultimately come up short against the bigger stronger fresher Stinger. This is the last bout in Mexico and, while El Santo is the home country hero here, we move to some other part of the World after this and Sting is easily the bigger global star.

Sting get's the deciding fall in the dying moments and there is a show of respect in the ring between the two after but the Stinger moves onto face either Sammartino (most likely) or Vader in the next venue.

You do realize that for this entire round, there's been a week since their last match? This is the second time this round you made it sound like these guys wrestled last night, which they haven't.

As thrilled as I am finally seeing Sting go far in the tourney, I don't think I can put him over Santo in Mexico City. I'll see if anyone can change my mind, but for now, my vote goes to El Santo.

Dirk
04-10-2013, 05:19 PM
Just because of a home crowd, Santo will win. Heaven knows, Montreal and London don't exist, apparently, and as long as Santo keeps wrestling in Mexico, he'll win.

HBsam31
04-10-2013, 05:37 PM
I am happy to see that Sting has gone so far in this, but I have to agree with the Santo supporters. He keep getting the good draws. In a one on one standard match I would go with Sting, but in an Ironman in Mexico I have to go with Santo. He went over The Rock in Mexico so I see no reason why he wouldn't dfeat Sting as well. He has the crowd, and I think he would win with the falls tied and getting a last second fall to the eruption of the crowd for a victory.

FitFinlay4Life
04-10-2013, 05:37 PM
You do realize that for this entire round, there's been a week since their last match? This is the second time this round you made it sound like these guys wrestled last night, which they haven't.

As thrilled as I am finally seeing Sting go far in the tourney, I don't think I can put him over Santo in Mexico City. I'll see if anyone can change my mind, but for now, my vote goes to El Santo.

I think you'll find that the SECOND round was a week ago, this is the fourth round and is being fought on the same night as the third round and KB stated at the beginning of the third round that previous meetings count for fatigue, injuries from the third round on.

And again, Sting goes over because Santo isn't going to be on home soil in the next round and Sting is the bigger star anywhere else on the planet.

I am happy to see that Sting has gone so far in this, but I have to agree with the Santo supporters. He keep getting the good draws. In a one on one standard match I would go with Sting, but in an Ironman in Mexico I have to go with Santo. He went over The Rock in Mexico so I see no reason why he wouldn't dfeat Sting as well. He has the crowd, and I think he would win with the falls tied and getting a last second fall to the eruption of the crowd for a victory.

This match suits Sting better because, as I've just clarified, he is by far the fresher man. Santo can lose strong and not lose face, Sting can proceed and the bookers and the fans go away happy!

Vote Sting!

Nate DaMac
04-10-2013, 06:23 PM
I think you'll find that the SECOND round was a week ago, this is the fourth round and is being fought on the same night as the third round and KB stated at the beginning of the third round that previous meetings count for fatigue, injuries from the third round on.

The time has come again for the Wrestlezone Tournament! This is our biggest event of the year and things are starting up soon. For those of you unfamiliar, here are the basics.

There are 128 wrestlers in the tournament which have been selected and ranked by a panel of experts from forums. They will engage in a single elimination tournament based on popular vote. There are seven rounds to the tournament which will be staged as follows:

Rounds 1 and 2 - One off matches. Think of these as stand alone matches that are held one week apart from each other.

Round 3 - This will be a set of gimmick matches, such as last man standing, ladder match, cage match etc.

Round 4 - Big gimmicks matches, such as Iron Man, Hell in a Cell, TLC etc.

Rounds 5-7 - One night tournament, King of the Ring style.

You're wrong.


And again, Sting goes over because Santo isn't going to be on home soil in the next round and Sting is the bigger star anywhere else on the planet.



This match suits Sting better because, as I've just clarified, he is by far the fresher man. Santo can lose strong and not lose face, Sting can proceed and the bookers and the fans go away happy!

Vote Sting!

Yeah I think I'm voting for El Santo purely based or this horrible argument. Sting will not be any fresher than Santo coming into this match, they've had a week to recover.

I don't even know what Santo actually looks like.

tarp
04-10-2013, 07:26 PM
Sting name was made in a 45 minute draw with the greatest of all time Ric Flair. He had several 45 to 60 minute matches. I think he wins this with a couple quick scropion drops and a couple of submisson move forgot the name like the sharpshooter.

FitFinlay4Life
04-10-2013, 07:38 PM
You're wrong.

Read the header at the top, it states it's one week after round 2 or, if you will, the same day as round 3. Nowhere does KB state that rounds 3 and 4 are not on the same night. He has said that damage done from gimmicks on will be factors. Who would book 3 matches over 2 nights a week apart?

Yeah I think I'm voting for El Santo purely based or this horrible argument. Sting will not be any fresher than Santo coming into this match, they've had a week to recover.

I don't even know what Santo actually looks like.

Please explain; what's horrible. I've followed the logic of the tournament as described by the gut running it and went with simple storytelling and sensible booking for the final 3 rounds which, likely as not, will be somewhere in the states were Sting is by far the greater draw and Santo will not have a hope in hell.

Slightly better than voting Santo because you dislike my argument!

It's...Baylariat!
04-10-2013, 07:57 PM
It's simple. As good as Sting has been, El Santo's in his homeland of Mexico, where he was a god-like figure and beat everyone that came into his path... especially when high stakes are involved.

It'll be a tough match, and lots of falls, but El Santo takes this one and a parade in Mexico City will commence.

OLE!

HBsam31
04-10-2013, 11:19 PM
I think you'll find that the SECOND round was a week ago, this is the fourth round and is being fought on the same night as the third round and KB stated at the beginning of the third round that previous meetings count for fatigue, injuries from the third round on.

And again, Sting goes over because Santo isn't going to be on home soil in the next round and Sting is the bigger star anywhere else on the planet.



This match suits Sting better because, as I've just clarified, he is by far the fresher man. Santo can lose strong and not lose face, Sting can proceed and the bookers and the fans go away happy!

Vote Sting!
What are we basing the fatigue factor on in this tournament? Sting faced Kurt Angle and El Santo faced the Rock. Are we basing the fatigue off of margin of victory in the last round because I am pretty sure Angle would have given Sting a run for his money and the fatigue would be equal in a real life tournament. I will hold off voting until this is explained to me because I didn't have a full understanding of fatigue when I said I will vote Santo.

FitFinlay4Life
04-11-2013, 09:25 AM
First off, I'd like to apologize to KlunderBunker for referring to him as a "gut" in my last post, I hit "t" instead of "y" and my spellcheck (logically enough) didn't highlight my error... and I was watching the TNA XDivision PPV at the same time so didn't proof read as closely as normal.

What are we basing the fatigue factor on in this tournament? Sting faced Kurt Angle and El Santo faced the Rock. Are we basing the fatigue off of margin of victory in the last round because I am pretty sure Angle would have given Sting a run for his money and the fatigue would be equal in a real life tournament. I will hold off voting until this is explained to me because I didn't have a full understanding of fatigue when I said I will vote Santo.

Since I have been a member of this forum, the WZT has always used votes cast to indicate the closeness of matches. Now given that there was only 2 votes between Santo and Rock, I have taken it that it would have been a very close match. Sting garnered roughly twice the votes of Kurt, so I have taken it that Kurt bled quite early... which is something that he was/is renowned for doing.

As such, as I have already stated, I believe that Sting goes into this the much fresher man (and I'd like to repeat that I still believe that this bout will be the same night as the third round because who books a card with two bouts one week and one bout the next? 3 bouts on the card makes logical booking sense and goes with the opening post by KB). So wrestling logic would be satisfied in Sting winning.

Santo has went over Taz, Kane and (last years WZT winner) the Rock - he can be booked to lose to a fellow técnico like Sting without losing face and the fans should be happy enough to see the Stinger embracing the Mexican hero after a valiant effort. But make no mistake, the remaining three rounds will not be fought in Mexico so this tournament would want the bigger GLOBAL name to go through and that's Sting.

Papa Pillman
04-11-2013, 09:43 AM
I really like the idea that the Mexico City crowd has already gotten its El Santo feel good moment, watching him go over a massive modern American star in The Rock, and the one who would perhaps be his most direct contemporary considering the cross-over film success. That combined with the fact that the fans would have developed a healthy respect for the resilient, charismatic, face-painted American star Sting who survived a first blood war against an Olympic champion, would make for the crowd being a lot more accepting of seeing their hero do the job in his second battle, knowing that the next round will be in some other part of the world anyway.

As for the match...
The start of Sting's prime could be considered when he was able to go 45 minutes in a draw against Ric Flair in Greensboro, North Carolina. This should prove that a fully prime Sting could go very deep, perhaps the entire hour against Santo without losing a fall, even in Mexico City.

Also once Sting hit his stride he more often than not moved from failing to finish Flair in 45 minutes, to beating him in less than 20. In fact Sting won the Starrcade "Iron Man" tournament. This isn't really an Iron Man match, but he did have to compete against three men in one night, and he still finished that night by beating Ric Flair in just under 15 minutes.

I think Sting would get a fall with the Scorpion Deathlock somewhere around the mid way point and then ride out that fall lead as the crowd went nuts and rallied for El Santo to even the score until he finally failed with a last second near fall giving Sting a 1-0 victory.

The Mexico City fans, still on a high that Santo was able to prevail against the mighty defending champion of the tournament, The Rock, would be appreciative of the effort given by both men and would pop huge for the post match show of respect that would occur between the two men as Sting advanced on to the championship rounds.

deem
04-11-2013, 07:00 PM
I really like the idea that the Mexico City crowd has already gotten its El Santo feel good moment, watching him go over a massive modern American star in The Rock, and the one who would perhaps be his most direct contemporary considering the cross-over film success. That combined with the fact that the fans would have developed a healthy respect for the resilient, charismatic, face-painted American star Sting who survived a first blood war against an Olympic champion, would make for the crowd being a lot more accepting of seeing their hero do the job in his second battle, knowing that the next round will be in some other part of the world anyway.

I share these thoughts almost exactly. While on paper El Santo over The Rock was a relatively simple choice for me, and Rock>Sting in my opinion, I still think I'm siding with the Stinger here.

It just makes no sense for El Santo to get further. He's had his moment and what a HUGE moment. The defining one in the history of Mexico. El Santo is booked as a demi-god super hero, but there's no need to disregard all the logical booking of this tournament. He's made it further than anyone that wrestled predominantly outside of North America (other than Vader?).

Hey, if El Santo gets through it's fresh and interesting, but Sting's shown he's more than capable of going 60m and I think this would be too much.

Bernkastel
04-12-2013, 01:36 PM
So apparently Santo beats The Rock in Mexico, but he can't beat Sting in Mexico, who was less of a draw than the Rock... right :rolleyes:.

I feel Sting is overrated quite highly on this site. Was he a top draw? Sure, but he wasn't the quality of draw, nor did he have the longevity, as some others - especially Santo; who was considered the biggest star in the history of his country. Being called the best in a country for over 4 decades isn't something that can be simply downplayed to "well, he didn't work in the United States so he's not that great." Sorry, that's a really piss poor argument. In a neutral setting with both men in their primes, Santo would be drawing far more people to this hypothetical match than Sting would. And he'd be booked to go over... because he was the bigger star.

This match should be a no brainer; even more so than the last one. Santo goes through.

FitFinlay4Life
04-12-2013, 05:16 PM
So apparently Santo beats The Rock in Mexico, but he can't beat Sting in Mexico, who was less of a draw than the Rock... right :rolleyes:.

I feel Sting is overrated quite highly on this site. Was he a top draw? Sure, but he wasn't the quality of draw, nor did he have the longevity, as some others - especially Santo; who was considered the biggest star in the history of his country. Being called the best in a country for over 4 decades isn't something that can be simply downplayed to "well, he didn't work in the United States so he's not that great." Sorry, that's a really piss poor argument. In a neutral setting with both men in their primes, Santo would be drawing far more people to this hypothetical match than Sting would. And he'd be booked to go over... because he was the bigger star.

This match should be a no brainer; even more so than the last one. Santo goes through.

Hold on, there is no way in hell that there is any neutral setting were Santo is bigger than Sting. Sting was a prominent star in wrestling when it was drawing in it's biggest viewing figures of the modern era and even if you were a WWF guy, you knew who the biggest stars were in the rival company. Santo is like Big Daddy - move him out of his home country and nobody knows him.

It's...Baylariat!
04-12-2013, 05:21 PM
Hold on, there is no way in hell that there is any neutral setting were Santo is bigger than Sting. Sting was a prominent star in wrestling when it was drawing in it's biggest viewing figures of the modern era and even if you were a WWF guy, you knew who the biggest stars were in the rival company. Santo is like Big Daddy - move him out of his home country and nobody knows him.

He's a prominent star in AMERICA... not in Mexico. El Santo's status in Mexico's not matched by anyone's status in any country. The man's had a state funeral, been in dozens of films, and was the most popular athlete in Mexico. Mind you, Hogan was popular, but not as big as Michael Jordan, Joe Montana, etc. El Santo WAS the biggest athlete in Mexico.

And as good as Sting was and is and as big of a fan as I am of Sting, there's no realistic way Sting can beat El Santo in this setting.

Factor this in, too - Elevation. It's almost TWO MILES above sea level in Mexico City and Sting's got to last 60 minutes with a man who made this place home.

There's no advantage for Stinger in this matchup...which is why I voted for El Santo.

FitFinlay4Life
04-12-2013, 06:00 PM
He's a prominent star in AMERICA... not in Mexico. El Santo's status in Mexico's not matched by anyone's status in any country. The man's had a state funeral, been in dozens of films, and was the most popular athlete in Mexico. Mind you, Hogan was popular, but not as big as Michael Jordan, Joe Montana, etc. El Santo WAS the biggest athlete in Mexico.

And I think you missed the point, Ech said Santo would be the bigger star in a neutral setting!

And as good as Sting was and is and as big of a fan as I am of Sting, there's no realistic way Sting can beat El Santo in this setting.

Why? Santo lost in Mexico (otherwise he wouldn't have had multiple reigns).

Factor this in, too - Elevation. It's almost TWO MILES above sea level in Mexico City and Sting's got to last 60 minutes with a man who made this place home.

Seeing as Vader won a World Title against Canek in this area, I don't think it'll phase Sting that much. Asides from that, professional athletes go to areas like this early to acclimatize - that's why the Mexican soccer team loses at home.

There's no advantage for Stinger in this matchup...which is why I voted for El Santo.

The next round will not be in Mexico, what history does Santo have anywhere else (considering he thought he could get across the American border with his mask on in the 1970s, I'm guessing very little)? Sting is known globally - he's the bigger name. He's who the organizers would want in the next round. Santo has had his big win in front of his fellow countrymen, knocking out last years WZT winner, the Rock. You know who the last man was to knock the Rock out of the WZT? Sting!

Bernkastel
04-12-2013, 06:10 PM
Hold on, there is no way in hell that there is any neutral setting were Santo is bigger than Sting. Sting was a prominent star in wrestling when it was drawing in it's biggest viewing figures of the modern era and even if you were a WWF guy, you knew who the biggest stars were in the rival company. Santo is like Big Daddy - move him out of his home country and nobody knows him.

You know what a neutral setting is right? It's where the fan bases of both superstars would have access to the hypothetical match no matter where it takes place. You aren't seriously suggesting that Sting in his prime had a larger fanbase than Santo in his? If Sting were as big of a star as Austin or Hogan, you'd have a serious argument, but he wasn't. As both a quality draw, and as a major crossover star within the media Sting falls short of Santo. Take Sting out of the States, and he wouldn't draw anywhere close to what he would in WCW - Santo is known to American audiences not only through the successes of lucha libre and through his movies.

And since the gimmick match doesn't favor either man, I see no real reason why Santo would lose.

FitFinlay4Life
04-12-2013, 06:25 PM
You know what a neutral setting is right? It's where the fan bases of both superstars would have access to the hypothetical match no matter where it takes place. You aren't seriously suggesting that Sting in his prime had a larger fanbase than Santo in his? If Sting were as big of a star as Austin or Hogan, you'd have a serious argument, but he wasn't. As both a quality draw, and as a major crossover star within the media Sting falls short of Santo. Take Sting out of the States, and he wouldn't draw anywhere close to what he would in WCW - Santo is known to American audiences not only through the successes of lucha libre and through his movies.

And since the gimmick match doesn't favor either man, I see no real reason why Santo would lose.

Neutral would have be somewhere like Japan, England or Canada - all countries that Sting has performed in and Santo hasn't... and do you really think the final night will be outside the US?

American wrestling is the most followed in the world so big names in US wrestling are well known around the world. Mexican wrestling is the third largest world market (after America and Japan) and hardly followed outside of it's home market. This is why it created such interest when Paul Heyman brought it to the States and WCW introduced Lucha to the masses and do you know who was a massive WCW star?

As for Santo's films... unless Quentin Tarantino is doing head booker duties, I really don't think that'll over impact on Santo's recognition outside of his home country.

Bernkastel
04-12-2013, 07:10 PM
Neutral would have be somewhere like Japan, England or Canada - all countries that Sting has performed in and Santo hasn't... and do you really think the final night will be outside the US?

Wrong. A neutral setting is a place that doesn't give either man a home field advantage. Since both Sting and Santo were faces in their primes, a neutral setting would be a place where both could draw their fanbases without biased. Santo had a much larger fanbase than Sting, and would draw far more fans to see the match. Because of this why should Sting be booked to win again?

American wrestling is the most followed in the world so big names in US wrestling are well known around the world.

Yeah... in 2013. In 1995 companies like WWE and WCW weren't global phenomenons. If a fan of New Japan knew what WCW was it's because of the fact that superstars like Sting toured internationally - and Sting lost quite often to bigger stars in Japan BTW. His 5 minute squash against Inoki comes to mind.

Mexican wrestling is the third largest world market (after America and Japan) and hardly followed outside of it's home market. This is why it created such interest when Paul Heyman brought it to the States and WCW introduced Lucha to the masses and do you know who was a massive WCW star?

You forget that lucha libre already had a massive following in Japan before it became popular in the States right? And I recall Mil Mascaras being one of those early pioneers giving guys like Heyman some success in the States to see.

As for Santo's films... unless Quentin Tarantino is doing head booker duties, I really don't think that'll over impact on Santo's recognition outside of his home country.

And yet 4 of Santo's films were dubbed into English, and shown in US theaters after receiving acclaim. As a crossover star he was known internationally. As a wrestler he was popular enough to sustain lucha libre in the 50's and 60's without having to rely on the help of international stars like Lou Thesz. During that time period the United States was the undisputed hotbed of pro wrestling.


The next round will not be in Mexico, what history does Santo have anywhere else (considering he thought he could get across the American border with his mask on in the 1970s, I'm guessing very little)? Sting is known globally - he's the bigger name. He's who the organizers would want in the next round. Santo has had his big win in front of his fellow countrymen, knocking out last years WZT winner, the Rock. You know who the last man was to knock the Rock out of the WZT? Sting!

A couple of things here...

1.) Santo's prime as a babyface came during the 50's and 60's. By the 70's he was past his prime and yet his longevity as a draw still continued to his death. The only wrestling star like that in the States will likely be Hogan.

2.) Sting ins't as big of an international name as some others, when WCW hosted there joint shows internationally in the mid 90's Sting wasn't even billed at the top of the card.

3.) Any promoter would want the more popular star to advance because he'd make them the most money. In a neutral setting where both Santo and Sting had access to their fans who would draw more interest? Santo would. So a promoter would make more money booking Santo to win this match because in the next he could benefit not only from Santo's massive appeal as a top wrestling star, but also his appeal as a massive crossover star.

Therefore Santo should win here.

Da Solo
04-12-2013, 07:26 PM
1. I don't see why the Mexico City advantage argument would work against Rock but not Sting. There's no real difference. Actually if you want to nitpick, Rock is an even bigger star in the US than Sting, so by default it's Santo's advantage here.

2. The Ironman stip doesn't hurt either man. Sting has the experience, and Santo, though he isn't known for the stip, should have no legit problems. Plus, Sting won't pin/submit Santo multiple times in Mexico City and win. Santo again.

3. Has Sting ever wrestled a lucha star anywhere near Santo's legacy? I wasn't a major WCW follower nor did I see Santo in his prime so this may be an irrelevant argument, but I cannot for the life of me remember Sting doing anything significant against someone wrestling such a different style from him. Logically, it would be easier for a lucha star to adapt to a more balanced opponent as opposed to vice versa, so Santo takes the match.

It's...Baylariat!
04-12-2013, 07:46 PM
And I think you missed the point, Ech said Santo would be the bigger star in a neutral setting!

What he means is who would draw more overall fans and Santo had more fans than Sting. Sting had sporadic fans across the US, but Santo was loved ALL OVER MEXICO. He was the biggest athlete in Mexico. And would have a bigger following.



Why? Santo lost in Mexico (otherwise he wouldn't have had multiple reigns).

In a winner take all scenario, Santo didn't lose. And the folks that beat Santo were much bigger than Sting and were more acclimated to Santo's wrestling style.


Seeing as Vader won a World Title against Canek in this area, I don't think it'll phase Sting that much. Asides from that, professional athletes go to areas like this early to acclimatize - that's why the Mexican soccer team loses at home.


Mexico's soccer team has a record of 23-1-1 against the United States in Mexico, and that draw and win came in the last year. And that's with lots of preparation. Mexico City's a hostile place, especially for an American.


The next round will not be in Mexico, what history does Santo have anywhere else (considering he thought he could get across the American border with his mask on in the 1970s, I'm guessing very little)? Sting is known globally - he's the bigger name. He's who the organizers would want in the next round. Santo has had his big win in front of his fellow countrymen, knocking out last years WZT winner, the Rock. You know who the last man was to knock the Rock out of the WZT? Sting!

You know who has a lot of Mexican-American's? USA! I'm sure many folks around North America are aware of Santo. It'd be foolish to say otherwise. And in all honesty, the bigger draw throughout their careers is Santo by a huge margin.

I'm a huge Sting fan, but I'm also realistic and I know Santo doesn't do the job to Sting in Mexico.

BobbyRoode444
04-13-2013, 06:15 AM
El Santo just took out the Rock. He remains in Mexico City for his next match, and the stipulation favors neither El Santo or Sting...El Santo wins

UrUp
04-13-2013, 10:53 PM
El Santo just took out the Rock. He remains in Mexico City for his next match, and the stipulation favors neither El Santo or Sting...El Santo wins

If El Santo was such a good guy, he'd surely put over Sting in this situation and in the instance of 60s meeting 80s upstart, El Santo would have to put over one of the universally greatest and honest baby faces of all time.

For those who understand anything about wrestling, El Santo would "enjoy" losing this match! Some are unqualified to pass the torch too, but Sting would of been more then capable and also would of built a bridge toward crossing culture gaps. The Rock is the product of the WWE machine... Sting is not. Cena, Edge, Benoit, Eddie... there all apart of the same machine. The big stars left and they filled their placed and they were immortalized for it... Sting is an old school guy and a guy who the old school guys helped pushed... not promoters.

El Santo would of put Sting over everyday of the week. Your talking about a "wrestling" guy who would of been 10x Bigger had he ever had the type of machine WWE is behind him.

Bernkastel
04-13-2013, 11:17 PM
If El Santo was such a good guy, he'd surely put over Sting in this situation and in the instance of 60s meeting 80s upstart, El Santo would have to put over one of the universally greatest and honest baby faces of all time.

But not his promoters, who would be trying to make money off of the interest this match would bring, they would be more interested in booking the bigger star into the next round. And that would be Santo. He had a much larger fanbase in his prime than Sting did.

For those who understand anything about wrestling, El Santo would "enjoy" losing this match! Some are unqualified to pass the torch too, but Sting would of been more then capable and also would of built a bridge toward crossing culture gaps.

If this were Santo past his prime, but against a prime Santo Sting would be the one that would be happy to job.

The Rock is the product of the WWE machine... Sting is not. Cena, Edge, Benoit, Eddie... there all apart of the same machine. The big stars left and they filled their placed and they were immortalized for it... Sting is an old school guy and a guy who the old school guys helped pushed... not promoters.

If Sting is an "old school" guy, then Santo would be an ""old" old school" guy. Whatever success Sting managed to accomplish Santo has him beat several fold. Most of the casuals that were big marks for WCW in the 90's aren't aware that Sting still wrestles... as evident how much interest TNA doesn't draw.

El Santo would of put Sting over everyday of the week. Your talking about a "wrestling" guy who would of been 10x Bigger had he ever had the type of machine WWE is behind him.

There's your difference between Sting and Santo right there. There was no "could have been's" with Santo; he was the most successful wrestler that Mexico and lucha libre ever had. In his prime Santo would be booked to go over indefinitely.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-14-2013, 01:36 AM
I am starting to despise El Santo.Yes, its coz I can't seem to vote against him. A Sting win wouldn't make any sense, under any circumstances in Mexico...unless it was a retirement match. Then only Sting would've had a chance.

I just found out something, Inoki beat Andre thrice in NJPW's Sumo Hall in Japan in the 70s. That's a huge deal. Regional stars get the rub from visiting white men, thats how its been in wrestling. And that's kinda what it is like here, and I don't mean physically comparing the individuals, but stature-wise.

El Santo wins every time in Mexico.


STOP DRAwING MEXICO SANTO!

Tastycles
04-14-2013, 08:27 AM
You could say that Santo wins this because it is in Mexico City, and that would be a reasonable argument. You could say he wins it because most of his matches were multiple fall ones that lasted a long time, and that would be a reasonable argument. You could say that he wins because he's a bigger draw than Sting, and that would be a reasonable argument. You could say he has a longer lasting argument than Sting, and that would be a reasonable argument. In short, a vote for Santo, is the reasonable argument.

shattered dreams
04-14-2013, 11:05 AM
You could say that Santo wins this because it is in Mexico City, and that would be a reasonable argument.

Not really. Hulk Hogan is everything Santo was and then some but no one votes for him just because a match happens to take place in the heart of America. Absence of information is a terrible reason to ignore all the other criteria we use for the rest of the wrestlers.

You could say he wins it because most of his matches were multiple fall ones that lasted a long time, and that would be a reasonable argument.

Can you provide a source that gives us match length?

You could say that he wins because he's a bigger draw than Sting, and that would be a reasonable argument.

In wrestling? Not so sure. It takes a lot of pesos and most of Santo's in-ring career wasn't even on tv.

It is only reasonable if you do something we do for no other wrestler in this tournament, that being assume the biggest pop culture star goes over regardless of anything else.

I still have yet to see any convincing evidence Santo was an unbeatable singles wrestler. For instance, I would love for someone to tell me when his prime was and what he did that was impressive in a wrestling ring at that time. If his prime was his funeral, then I like Sting's chances.

Tastycles
04-14-2013, 01:01 PM
Not really. Hulk Hogan is everything Santo was and then some but no one votes for him just because a match happens to take place in the heart of America. Absence of information is a terrible reason to ignore all the other criteria we use for the rest of the wrestlers.

Was one of the main pro Punk arguments in the previous round not that the match was in Chicago? That's the exact same thing. It is a categorical wrestling fact that people who's career is based on defending the national name do well. Santo is one such person, Rikidozan another. When Santo fought Austin in this tournament a few years ago, he lost in a total landslide, and a common reason given was that Austin was at home.



Can you provide a source that gives us match length?

I have seen several over the years, please don't portray me as a liar. I have to get to the train station, but I promise I'll edit this/post one later. I just haven't got the time to trawl the net right now.

In wrestling? Not so sure. It takes a lot of pesos and most of Santo's in-ring career wasn't even on tv.

That's not really true. They started showing Lucha Libre in Mexico in the early 1950s, I would contest that his prime pretty much exactly coincided with that, from about 1951-1962 or so, though I guess the point stands as few had a TV.

It is only reasonable if you do something we do for no other wrestler in this tournament, that being assume the biggest pop culture star goes over regardless of anything else.

I still have yet to see any convincing evidence Santo was an unbeatable singles wrestler. For instance, I would love for someone to tell me when his prime was and what he did that was impressive in a wrestling ring at that time. If his prime was his funeral, then I like Sting's chances.

You keep going down this road, and I sort of understand why, but it's a bit bizarre.

1) He wouldn't have been a popular culture star if he wasn't a popular wrestler first. If you compare the other crossovers, even within Lucha Libre, they are all huge stars. Look at the WWE's crossovers, and it becomes even more apparent - The Rock has made lots of money as a crossover, and Mr. Kennedy's film was widely panned.

2) I've already told you several times that his prime was the late 50s early 60s. Did he win every match then? No. Did he win most? Yes. You completely ignored the last time I pointed it out as being about the most important thing in lucha libre is lucha de apuestas, and he won no fewer than 35 such matches without defeat. 16 of those were masks. I don't know of a single luchador with a record even approaching that. Looking at the other big names records in hair/mask matches (I've drawn attention to the mask wins, as because everyone can only lose this once, it makes it more prestigious):

El Santo - 35 wins, 16 masks
El Canek - 25 wins, 9 masks
El Solitario - 24 wins, 1 defeat as a previous character, 13 masks
Mil Mascaras - 13 wins, 5 masks
Blue Demon - 11 wins, 6 masks
Konnan - 10 wins, one defeat, 2 masks
Gory Guerrero - 1 win, 1 mask

Do you not see how that is an impressive in ring career?

3) More on the history. Santo was not popular because he was in films. Santo was popular because a) many of his big wins were against foreigners and b) many of his big domestic wins were felt too, because of the economic situation at the time.

Santo was born elsewhere, but moved to Tepito in Mexico City whilst still a young child. During this time there was a rebellion in Mexico called the Cristero War, basically caused by the fact that the government were anti-catholic. The resulting migration turned Tepito into a slum, with many poor people. Somebody called The Saint, a child of an area made poor because of their devotion to catholicism, beating the established stars of the day was always going to be popular. The ability of the man to connect to that crowd is what made him a far wider reaching star than just in the wrestling ring.

shattered dreams
04-14-2013, 01:38 PM
Was one of the main pro Punk arguments in the previous round not that the match was in Chicago? That's the exact same thing.

Yes, but that wasn't the only reason. It was more of tiebreaker than anything for that match. That is the distinction I am pointing out. Being in Mexico City certainly helps Santo, anywhere else he would have no chance whatsoever. I just don't see any other wrestler that gets that as a standalone argument. I don't see many people saying anything other than Santo was very popular in Mexico therefore he wins. The location by itself is insufficient evidence as far as I am concerned.

I have seen several over the years, please don't portray me as a liar. I have to get to the train station, but I promise I'll edit this/post one later. I just haven't got the time to trawl the net right now.

I am not saying you are lying just that there seems to be little information about what Santo actually did in the ring opposed to the info about how big of a legend he is. Funny thing about legends, they are often exaggerated.

1) He wouldn't have been a popular culture star if he wasn't a popular wrestler first. If you compare the other crossovers, even within Lucha Libre, they are all huge stars. Look at the WWE's crossovers, and it becomes even more apparent - The Rock has made lots of money as a crossover, and Mr. Kennedy's film was widely panned.

Seems at least somewhat cherry picked and that isn't what I am getting at anyway. While it isn't apples to oranges when it comes to that laughable sci-fi lucha cinema, I still don't see why we are using movie popularity to determine who wins a wrestling match. If this was a silver screen match then maybe but it isn't.

2) I've already told you several times that his prime was the late 50s early 60s. Did he win every match then? No. Did he win most? Yes. You completely ignored the last time I pointed it out as being about the most important thing in lucha libre is lucha de apuestas, and he won no fewer than 35 such matches without defeat. 16 of those were masks. I don't know of a single luchador with a record even approaching that. Looking at the other big names records in hair/mask matches (I've drawn attention to the mask wins, as because everyone can only lose this once, it makes it more prestigious):

El Santo - 35 wins, 16 masks
El Canek - 25 wins, 9 masks
El Solitario - 24 wins, 1 defeat as a previous character, 13 masks
Mil Mascaras - 13 wins, 5 masks
Blue Demon - 11 wins, 6 masks
Konnan - 10 wins, one defeat, 2 masks
Gory Guerrero - 1 win, 1 mask

Do you not see how that is an impressive in ring career?

Who said he didn't have an impressive career? All I have questioned is if he is really battle tested when it comes to fighting people outside of his small pond. Furthermore, do you know how many lucha de apuesta matches he won from 1957-1963? The answer is zero. You might want to try again on that prime thing if you are going to hang your hat on those matches. Sure seems to me like it is still a situation where we are guessing on what Santo actually did just because he was a legend. Who is the biggest name he beat in these "most important" matches? None of those people you just listed. Hell, he doesn't even appear that battle tested in his own pond. He did lose (several?) high profile matches to Blue Demon in the early 50s though. It is also worth pointing out Santo turned 40 in 1957 and this is an ironman match, what do hair or masks have to do with anything here? This pudgy hometown hero that is over 40 has to go 60 minutes against a larger opponent. I hardly think my skepticism that the location of the match is all that matters is unwarranted.

3) More on the history. Santo was not popular because he was in films. Santo was popular because a) many of his big wins were against foreigners and b) many of his big domestic wins were felt too, because of the economic situation at the time.

I find this incredibly unlikely. Santo was as popular as he was because of the pop culture stuff, that isn't to say he wasn't popular in wrestling, just that it would be impossible to reach the levels of popularity he attained simply from non-televised wrestling matches.

Tastycles
04-14-2013, 05:06 PM
Yes, but that wasn't the only reason. It was more of tiebreaker than anything for that match. That is the distinction I am pointing out. Being in Mexico City certainly helps Santo, anywhere else he would have no chance whatsoever. I just don't see any other wrestler that gets that as a standalone argument. I don't see many people saying anything other than Santo was very popular in Mexico therefore he wins. The location by itself is insufficient evidence as far as I am concerned.

Ok, but it is part of the evidence. The fact he is the most successful luchador in terms of lucha de apuestas also adds to that. The fact almost all of his matches were multi fall matches adds to it. The fact that he had a variety of different fighting styles adds to it. The fact he was a cross over star is a small part of the evidence. The fact he drew more people to his funeral than Sting drew to Starrcade 1990 and 1991 is another part of the evidence.

I am not saying you are lying just that there seems to be little information about what Santo actually did in the ring opposed to the info about how big of a legend he is. Funny thing about legends, they are often exaggerated.

There is an abundance of information about his relative successes in lucha de apuesta and title matches, both of which are impressive records, though like I said, take the title stuff with a pinch of salt. There may not be reams of match data, but looking at what there is, two things become clear 1) He won most of his matches 2) He won almost all of his matches where anything was on the line.

Seems at least somewhat cherry picked and that isn't what I am getting at anyway. While it isn't apples to oranges when it comes to that laughable sci-fi lucha cinema, I still don't see why we are using movie popularity to determine who wins a wrestling match. If this was a silver screen match then maybe but it isn't.

We're not using that. What we're saying is you only get to be in 50+ films as a wrestler if you are already a good wrestler. He appears in those films as El Santo, the wrestler, you only get to that position if you're good. At no point have I said "Santo's in more films than Sting, so he's better", please stop making out that is anybody's argument, because I don't think it has been.

Who said he didn't have an impressive career? All I have questioned is if he is really battle tested when it comes to fighting people outside of his small pond. Furthermore, do you know how many lucha de apuesta matches he won from 1957-1963? The answer is zero. You might want to try again on that prime thing if you are going to hang your hat on those matches.


He won 4 lucha de apuestas in 1963 alone! I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I can literally go on Wikipedia and refute what you just said. There's lots of "unknown" dates on there too, but the overwhelming majority of these will have been in my 1951 - 1962 timeline, and you can prove this by looking at who the people will. This requires more than wikipedia, but not much more. Take El Gladiador. He lost his hair to Santo, on an "unknown date" but having lost his mask in 1956, and lost his right to fight in Mexico City in 1959 after getting pissed before a match, it's clear when that fell.

It's positive that you don't buy into the legend based on what people write about him uninformed, but the fact is I spent quite a lot of my university days finding out about these luchadors because I genuinely find them and the culture interesting.

Sure seems to me like it is still a situation where we are guessing on what Santo actually did just because he was a legend. Who is the biggest name he beat in these "most important" matches? None of those people you just listed. Hell, he doesn't even appear that battle tested in his own pond. He did lose (several?) high profile matches to Blue Demon in the early 50s though. It is also worth pointing out Santo turned 40 in 1957 and this is an ironman match, what do hair or masks have to do with anything here? This pudgy hometown hero that is over 40 has to go 60 minutes against a larger opponent. I hardly think my skepticism that the location of the match is all that matters is unwarranted.

I don't understand what I have to say? I say that probably the most important aspect of Lucha Libre is winning Lucha de Apuestas and nobody has a stronger record than him. He wrestled more than 10,000 matches in a 50 year career, according to Arena Mexico, which is 200 matches a year. As it's fairly unlikely that he was wrestling that when he was in his 60s, it stands to reason that he had a very heavy schedule during the prime of his career. I'm pretty sure this ensures stamina.


I find this incredibly unlikely. Santo was as popular as he was because of the pop culture stuff, that isn't to say he wasn't popular in wrestling, just that it would be impossible to reach the levels of popularity he attained simply from non-televised wrestling matches.

Why pick him for the films? He certainly wasn't the best at acting or even at making technically sound wrestling matches, so why would they pick him of all the wrestlers to be in the films? The answer is because he was the most popular wrestler by a mile.

shattered dreams
04-14-2013, 10:09 PM
There is an abundance of information about his relative successes in lucha de apuesta and title matches, both of which are impressive records, though like I said, take the title stuff with a pinch of salt. There may not be reams of match data, but looking at what there is, two things become clear 1) He won most of his matches 2) He won almost all of his matches where anything was on the line.

That isn't clear to me at all, he seemed to lose the titles as much, if not more than his top contemporaries. To say there isn't reams is an overstatement. There is almost nothing on his match data. His lucha de apuesta record is impressive but it is significantly less so when you consider the level of competition. Only 6 of the 35 have been deemed relevant enough to even have a Wikipedia page.

He won 4 lucha de apuestas in 1963 alone! I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I can literally go on Wikipedia and refute what you just said.

From 1957 to 1963 as in starting in January 1957 and ending in January 1963.

There's lots of "unknown" dates on there too, but the overwhelming majority of these will have been in my 1951 - 1962 timeline, and you can prove this by looking at who the people will. This requires more than wikipedia, but not much more. Take El Gladiador. He lost his hair to Santo, on an "unknown date" but having lost his mask in 1956, and lost his right to fight in Mexico City in 1959 after getting pissed before a match, it's clear when that fell.

Still not late 50s early 60s, did you mean early 50s? Did someone update Wikipedia because it is in there now. Also, I see no reason I should equate that household name El Gladiator with Sting, which is kind of the more important point. If these matches were so important, why does no one remember when they were?

It's positive that you don't buy into the legend based on what people write about him uninformed, but the fact is I spent quite a lot of my university days finding out about these luchadors because I genuinely find them and the culture interesting.

I find the cultural aspects of it interesting as well, however, in this tournament I also find all aspects of the situation interesting. No one is talking about the match itself except to suggest a still unproven idea that Santo regularly worked long matches. I'd actually be interested in reading what you have about Santo's career if it is more than just vague rhetoric about how legendary he was.

I don't understand what I have to say? I say that probably the most important aspect of Lucha Libre is winning Lucha de Apuestas and nobody has a stronger record than him. He wrestled more than 10,000 matches in a 50 year career, according to Arena Mexico, which is 200 matches a year. As it's fairly unlikely that he was wrestling that when he was in his 60s, it stands to reason that he had a very heavy schedule during the prime of his career. I'm pretty sure this ensures stamina.

Or short matches, or tag matches. How often was he going 60 minutes vs someone 5 inches taller and 40 pounds of muscle heavier?

FitFinlay4Life
04-15-2013, 04:41 PM
Dammit, I suppose that's what I get for going away for the weekend!

I've hunted about and think I've finally found a site with reasonable stats on El Santo, so here it is...

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=373&bild=4&details=4&statart=0

... and to be fair - here's the Stingers...

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=26&bild=1&details=4

To knock that down a bit further: Santo's singles record here is 31 wins; 19 defeats and 12 draws... a 50% win history, hardly astounding!

I have seen people saying that the closest comparison to Santo in America is Hulk Hogan, Sting's record against Hogan 1 on 1? 12 wins; 0 loses and 3 draws.

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=konst&letter1=S&wrestler1=119&letter2=H&wrestler2=184&letter3=&wrestler3=0&letter4=&wrestler4=0&anzeige=&matchtyp=1

El Santo is a Mexican icon and, when it comes to Mask matches, he's the Undertaker at WrestleMania BUT his ordinary records that can be found indicate that he is extremely beatable and his most famous feud... he lost! Sting, against a who's who of WZT competitors... well see for yourself...

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=26&bild=1&details=10&statart=&sort=0&seite=1

Santo has won this match but he shouldn't have (and he shouldn't have beaten Rock either) and the annihilation he'll receive in the next round will be testament to that.

shattered dreams
04-15-2013, 06:49 PM
Dammit, I suppose that's what I get for going away for the weekend!

I've hunted about and think I've finally found a site with reasonable stats on El Santo, so here it is...

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=373&bild=4&details=4&statart=0

... and to be fair - here's the Stingers...

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=26&bild=1&details=4

To knock that down a bit further: Santo's singles record here is 31 wins; 19 defeats and 12 draws... a 50% win history, hardly astounding!

I have seen people saying that the closest comparison to Santo in America is Hulk Hogan, Sting's record against Hogan 1 on 1? 12 wins; 0 loses and 3 draws.

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=konst&letter1=S&wrestler1=119&letter2=H&wrestler2=184&letter3=&wrestler3=0&letter4=&wrestler4=0&anzeige=&matchtyp=1

El Santo is a Mexican icon and, when it comes to Mask matches, he's the Undertaker at WrestleMania BUT his ordinary records that can be found indicate that he is extremely beatable and his most famous feud... he lost! Sting, against a who's who of WZT competitors... well see for yourself...

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=26&bild=1&details=10&statart=&sort=0&seite=1

Santo has won this match but he shouldn't have (and he shouldn't have beaten Rock either) and the annihilation he'll receive in the next round will be testament to that.

Interesting find. While the data there is FAR from complete it does confirm that the idea that Santo basically never lost is a crock. Not much time mentioned there but when it is the matches don't seem very long either. Santo is legit as popular as people have said. Too bad they refuse to figure out why, unlike they do with every other wrestler in the tournament.