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View Full Version : Int Region, Third Round, Dog Collar Match: (1) Steve Austin vs. (9) Vader


klunderbunker
03-31-2013, 05:53 PM
This is a third round match in the International Region. It is a Dog Collar match held under International Rules, meaning the match is held under the standard rules of the country the match is held in. It will be held at the Arena Mexico in Mexico City, Mexico. Assume one week has passed since the second round match.

http://rudosneza.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/arena-mexico.jpg

Dog Collar Match Rules: The two men will be attached at the necks by a ten foot chain with collars at the ends. The match is won by pinfall or submission, NOT by touching all four buckles.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/336/664/StoneColdSteveAustinPortraitsearch.com_display_ima ge.jpg?1281424798

#1. Steve Austin

Vs.

http://thatshowkidsdie.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/271.jpg

#9. Vader



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

IrishCanadian25
03-31-2013, 09:35 PM
I maintain that Vader would win this match. Vader is a guy you need to be able to keep a distance from in order to defeat in most cases, and having a guy like Vader able to pull you in on a chain and beat you senseless is hard to survive. People should remember, Vader is one of the better strikers in wrestling - he used short punches in the corner that made many people cringe.

The fact that it's pin / submission is Austin's one saving grace. If he had to drag Vader to 4 turnbuckles, I'd say that'd be a sure win for Vader. But it's not. Oh well.

Vader is bigger and stronger. Austin may have a minuscule edge in speed, but not much. Both men are equal in terms of toughness, versatility, experience, and ruthlessness.

I fear that many internet fan boys will see the names in the match and vote Austin without a second thought. Still, I'll give it a shot despite the fact that I'm up against one of the most popular wrestlers in history. Amazing what cheap beer and swear words can do for a career.

Vader wrecks Cactus Jack
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Vader's eye pops out of his head - he pops it back in and finishes the match
AmK8mt4QWBg

Allah Loves PaperGhost
03-31-2013, 11:42 PM
I think this a serious SERIOUS threat Austin. Oh brutal gimmick, in an international territory against a bad bad dude. This one require some mulling and fact checking.

Gonna be tight.

It's...Baylariat!
04-01-2013, 12:22 AM
Austin's become a folk hero for his no nonsense attitude and his ability to stick his middle finger in the faces of establishment. During his run in the WWE, he's beaten every single meaningful wrestler in his era. Undertaker, Rock, HHH, Kane, Mankind, and many others have fell to Austin.

That being said, at Vader's peak, he's beaten Sting when he was white hot, and nearly killed Cactus Jack on more than one occasion. And we could also mention his victories in Japan and the draws he's had against some of the world's greatest wrestlers. He also nearly beat Antonio Inoki to death. In Japan.

Long story short, Vader's a bad, bad man. Anyone who fights to no contest after nearly having his eye pop out earns his stripes.

Then again, Austin finished his match against Owen Hart with a broken neck.

Right now it's a push... IC or someone on the Austin bandwagon will have to convince me one way or another.

Nate DaMac
04-01-2013, 12:38 AM
Jesus. I instinctually wanted to go with Austin but even in his prime, where he could beat absolutely anyone, he wasn't immune to going down with the deck stacked against him. He lost to Hart in an I Quit match albeit a bit before his prime. He lost to Kane in a First Blood match. He lost in a Triple Threat Match to Kane & The Undertaker.

In pretty much any other kind of match I would have given Austin the advantage. He's just as ruthless as Vader is, but in a match where his speed won't be a factor and his strength is outmatched considerably, it's hard to come up with a way that Austin would win other than his intangible traits.

Tastycles
04-01-2013, 03:22 AM
Austin would win this, and the fact we are even discussing it is testament to the amount Vader has been hyped by this forum. Vader had one feud with Sting where they exchanged victories in the early 90s WCW, but outside of that he's never beaten any of America's greats. Why? Because he wasn't good enough.

Would Austin be beaten bloody? Sure. Would he lose? Absolutely not. The amount of times Austin was brutalised and still won are innumerable, and some of them came in gimmick matches that were stacked against him, e. g. Against Taker.

If Austin were a technical wrestler that needed separation, I'd buy this, but he wasn't at all, and the collar won't prevent a close brawl, exactly what Austin needs.

Dirk
04-01-2013, 04:04 AM
having a guy like Vader able to pull you in on a chain and beat you senseless is hard to survive.

Not only would Vader be able to pull you in, he MAY be strong enough to swing Austin around on that chain and just smash him into the posts.

jmt225
04-01-2013, 07:04 AM
Austin would win this, and the fact we are even discussing it is testament to the amount Vader has been hyped by this forum. Vader had one feud with Sting where they exchanged victories in the early 90s WCW, but outside of that he's never beaten any of America's greats. Why? Because he wasn't good enough.

Yeah, and in one those matches he beat Sting in a Leather Strap match, which is virtually the same thing as a Dog Collar Match. And the one match I know Steve Austin has had in a leather strap or dog collar match was against Savio Vega, in which he lost. And that was at a time when Austin was just entering his prime.

So, let's recap... Vader beat prime blonde Sting in a leather strap match, prime Austin loses to SAVIO VEGA in one.... who gets the edge? The answer is obvious.

In a regular one-on-one match I'd give the slight edge to Austin, but in this match absolutely no way. Not only does the history speak for itself, but logic plays a factor too. Austin would have an extremely hard time being locked in a collar along side Vader. He wouldn't be able to pull him around, nor would he be able to use any kind of speed or athleticism to his advantage. This match plays specifically in the favor of the stronger/bigger opponent, and Vader is that by a LOT in this match. He beats Austin and does so pretty decisively.

Now, if you want to vote for Austin because of his legacy or because you preferred his work over Vader's, then that's fine. However, I don't think there's any fair argument that could be made in Austin's favor concerning the match itself. Vader crushes the guy 9 times out of 10.

Vader gets my vote. Not only because he whoops Austin in this match, but also because the guy's body of work is every bit as good as Austin's. Vader vs. Sting was Austin vs. Hart before Austin vs. Hart went down.

IrishCanadian25
04-01-2013, 09:12 AM
Jmt makes several fantastic points. Listen, I'll be the first to admit that Steve Austin is as solid a personality in wrestling history as there has ever been. He drew massive money. But for me, the WZ Tournament has never - EVER - been about drawing power. It's a question of who legitimately has the tools to win in a match.

Big Van Vader in his prime was more brutal than anybody. He broke a man's back once. He has a winning record against Sting, and in the White Castle of Fear Strap Match JMT refers to, Vader ruptured Sting's ear drum with the strap. In a chain match, Vader might just rupture Austin's brain.

Austin's attitude can't win him this match. Austin's attitude is no nonsense and brutal. Big Van Vader was doing that when Austin was a Hollywood Blonde. Austin can't slide out of the ring and compose himself, he'll get reeled in by Vader and mashed to a pulp.

Don't let Austin's popularity influence you. Vader beat a guy in Sting in the 90's who was as popular as anyone.

Poop Master Flex
04-01-2013, 09:27 AM
I would have went with Austin without a second thought IF this wasn't a dog collar match, unfortunately it is which gives Vader an advantage.

Austin wasn't invincible by any means, with the deck stacked against him he often did in fact lose. There's a lot of things Austin wouldn't be able to do against Vader in such a match. He can't stick and move he's attached to Vader by a chain. Frankly nothing is stopping Vader from pummeling Austin until he becomes unresponsive. At the same time Austin could grab a quick stunner and win as well. If this was a strap match Austin would be fucked but he can beat Vader in a dog collar match where he just has to survive and pin Vader, Austin can do that. Strap matches are NOT dog collar matches, its not like Austin has to drag Vader around the ring to win, he just needs to survive and hit a Stunner, that's literally all he has to do.

Screw it I'm going with Austin.

IrishCanadian25
04-01-2013, 09:39 AM
I would have went with Austin without a second thought IF this wasn't a dog collar match, unfortunately it is which gives Vader an advantage.

Austin wasn't invincible by any means, with the deck stacked against him he often did in fact lose. There's a lot of things Austin wouldn't be able to do against Vader in such a match. He can't stick and move he's attached to Vader by a chain. Frankly nothing is stopping Vader from pummeling Austin until he becomes unresponsive. At the same time Austin could grab a quick stunner and win as well. If this was a strap match Austin would be fucked but he can beat Vader in a dog collar match where he just has to survive and pin Vader, Austin can do that. Strap matches are NOT dog collar matches, its not like Austin has to drag Vader around the ring to win, he just needs to survive and hit a Stunner, that's literally all he has to do.

Screw it I'm going with Austin.

Before you throw your hands up and side with Austin on the basis of his finishing maneuver, please bear this point in mind. That's definitely not "all" Austin has to do.

Kayfabe wrestling history has one elite club - the few and the proud who have kicked out of Hulk Hogan's Leg Drop. Sid Justice did it, but only because Papa Shango missed his cue and Hogan didn't know Whippleman was running interference at Wrestlemania 8. Yokozuna kicked out and then beat Hogan. Goldberg MAY have, but I don't recall it.

Big Van Vader is the only man who has kicked out of Hogan's leg drop after a count of 1.

Vader has withstood some of the greatest finishers of all time, while Austin's stunner, though lethal, has a far longer list of survivors to its name. Heck, The Rock kicked out of it two or three times in one match.

I think Vader can do more damage to Austin at close range with the chain that Austin can with a stunner.

Another point to consider. Austin reached his prime in 1999-2003 or so. In 1997, Owen Hart broke Austin's neck at Summer Slam. Where is the Dog Collar attached? Around Austin's neck. I don't want to sound gruesome here, but Austin with a previously broken neck is gonna have a dog collar on a chain attached to BIG VAN VADER around that same neck? Oh boy, that can't be good for Stone Cold.

Poop Master Flex
04-01-2013, 09:50 AM
Before you throw your hands up and side with Austin on the basis of his finishing maneuver, please bear this point in mind. That's definitely not "all" Austin has to do.

Kayfabe wrestling history has one elite club - the few and the proud who have kicked out of Hulk Hogan's Leg Drop. Sid Justice did it, but only because Papa Shango missed his cue and Hogan didn't know Whippleman was running interference at Wrestlemania 8. Yokozuna kicked out and then beat Hogan. Goldberg MAY have, but I don't recall it.

Big Van Vader is the only man who has kicked out of Hogan's leg drop after a count of 1.

Vader has withstood some of the greatest finishers of all time, while Austin's stunner, though lethal, has a far longer list of survivors to its name. Heck, The Rock kicked out of it two or three times in one match.

I think Vader can do more damage to Austin at close range with the chain that Austin can with a stunner.

Another point to consider. Austin reached his prime in 1999-2003 or so. In 1997, Owen Hart broke Austin's neck at Summer Slam. Where is the Dog Collar attached? Around Austin's neck. I don't want to sound gruesome here, but Austin with a previously broken neck is gonna have a dog collar on a chain attached to BIG VAN VADER around that same neck? Oh boy, that can't be good for Stone Cold.

Understandable that a dog collar match with a stinger isn't gonna help Austin's chances but I think that works to Austin's advantage as weird as it sounds. Although Austin didn't always overcome the odds he usually did, the only times he really didn't were matches that it was pretty much impossible for him to win (like Kane in a first blood match). At the end of the day this IS wrestling so its just another part of the Austin defying the odds story.

I guess what I'm saying is Austin really only lost when it was pretty much impossible for him to win but when there was a slight chance he almost always did. He beat Dude Love while Mr. McMahon was a ref, he beat the Undertaker in a buried alive and first blood match and he beat The Rock a million times outside of the fact The Rock usually had an entourage to back him up so there's really no reason he can't beat Vader in a dog collar match (once again if it was a strap match I would vote Vader because Austin beating Vader in a strap match is next to impossible because of the way you gotta win it).

Vader may kick out from 1 stunner, but 2? 3? Eventually Vader will fall to the stunner, everybody does. I'm just saying if Austin can beat Undertaker with 1 stunner he can beat Vader with 1 stunner.

IrishCanadian25
04-01-2013, 10:02 AM
Although Austin didn't always overcome the odds he usually did, the only times he really didn't were matches that it was pretty much impossible for him to win (like Kane in a first blood match).

So what you're saying is that the times Austin failed to overcome the odds occured when he was facing a larger, stronger monster heel in a match that clearly favored the monster heel.

Duly noted.

At the end of the day this IS wrestling so its just another part of the Austin defying the odds story.

This tournament isn't about writing the best story. It's about making a realistic argument as to who would win and why. I'm sorry - I like you and I like the way you frame your argument and make your point, but "it could happen because it's awesome when an underdog overcomes the odds" isn't a cogent argument. By that logic, Koko B Ware should win the whole dang thing.

I guess what I'm saying is Austin really only lost when it was pretty much impossible for him to win

He had every chance to beat Triple H in the 3 Stages of Hell Match (lost that gimmick match), Kane in the First Blood Match (lost that gimmick match), Savio Vega in the Strap Match (lost that gimmick match), Bret Hart in the submission match (lost that Gimmick Match) and The Rock at Wrestlemania 19.

but when there was a slight chance he almost always did.

Because it was written that way out of popularity, nothing else. This tournament isn't about choosing the most popular. It's not high school politics.

He beat Dude Love while Mr. McMahon was a ref

The same guy who also played hardcore legend Cactus Jack whom Vader decimated all around the world in the Early 90's? Ok, cool!

he beat the Undertaker in a buried alive and first blood match

Vader's beaten him too.

and he beat The Rock a million times outside of the fact The Rock usually had an entourage to back him up

Kinda like how Austin had McMahon at Mania 17?

so there's really no reason he can't beat Vader in a dog collar match

I've provided you with a few, take your pick. Personally, I like the whole "yanking a chain attached to a guy's once broken neck" argument. It's a good one.

(once again if it was a strap match I would vote Vader because Austin beating Vader in a strap match is next to impossible because of the way you gotta win it).

It's easier to pin someone than it is to drag them post to post. If Vader can't incapacitate Austin for 3 seconds...

Vader may kick out from 1 stunner, but 2? 3? Eventually Vader will fall to the stunner, everybody does.

And Vader's just gonna stand there and let Austin stun him?

I'm just saying if Austin can beat Undertaker with 1 stunner he can beat Vader with 1 stunner.

And if Vader can beat Sting with the Powerbomb, the Vaderbomb, etc. then he can beat Austin.

Poop Master Flex
04-01-2013, 10:22 AM
So what you're saying is that the times Austin failed to overcome the odds occured when he was facing a larger, stronger monster heel in a match that clearly favored the monster heel.

Duly noted.
This tournament isn't about writing the best story. It's about making a realistic argument as to who would win and why. I'm sorry - I like you and I like the way you frame your argument and make your point, but "it could happen because it's awesome when an underdog overcomes the odds" isn't a cogent argument. By that logic, Koko B Ware should win the whole dang thing.

He had every chance to beat Triple H in the 3 Stages of Hell Match (lost that gimmick match), Kane in the First Blood Match (lost that gimmick match), Savio Vega in the Strap Match (lost that gimmick match), Bret Hart in the submission match (lost that Gimmick Match) and The Rock at Wrestlemania 19.

Because it was written that way out of popularity, nothing else. This tournament isn't about choosing the most popular. It's not high school politics.

The same guy who also played hardcore legend Cactus Jack whom Vader decimated all around the world in the Early 90's? Ok, cool!

Vader's beaten him too.

Kinda like how Austin had McMahon at Mania 17?

I've provided you with a few, take your pick. Personally, I like the whole "yanking a chain attached to a guy's once broken neck" argument. It's a good one.

It's easier to pin someone than it is to drag them post to post. If Vader can't incapacitate Austin for 3 seconds...

And Vader's just gonna stand there and let Austin stun him?

And if Vader can beat Sting with the Powerbomb, the Vaderbomb, etc. then he can beat Austin.

I'm not picking the underdog story because it's the underdog story and it makes for a good story at all, but in my experience with Austin he usually thrives in such an environment. I'll never argue Vader can't beat Austin, I would be foolish to think that but Austin winning when the odds are stacked against him is typical Austin in a sense.

He lost to Savio Vega when before he was in his prime, lost to Bret Hart in a match that made him a big star, lost to Kane in a match where if Kane lost he would have to kill himself like a protesting Buddhist monk and The Rock because he was leaving wrestling for good. Triple H is really the only one I would seriously consider because he's the only one that actually BEAT Austin in his prime. Kane did too but its impossible to beat a guy when if that guy loses he has to kill himself.

I'm certainly not saying Vader can't beat Austin and frankly I was on the fence for a bit but then I really thought about all the times Austin did in fact win with his back against the wall. In my experience with Austin is if he has a legit chance of winning (no matter how small) he will most likely win. Understand voting isn't in yet and I'm not 100% set on Austin winning but its also hard to bet against the guy. Betting against Austin is like betting against Yankee's in '98, sure they lost but betting against them isn't the smart thing to do especially in a big game scenario. Austin's a big game player, this is a big match, its harder to go against the guy when I look at his track record in his prime.

PsychoBlack
04-01-2013, 10:44 AM
Vader, it's not even close. Vader is one of the most sadistic human beings to ever step foot into a wrestling ring. Couple that with his strength, speed, and kayfabe success he seems to be damn near unbeatable in a match where he has a chain attached to his opponents reconstructed neck it seems to be a wrap for the rattlesnake. As great as Austin was he lost quite a bit when the odds were against him, which they certainly are here.

Vote Vader

deem
04-01-2013, 01:19 PM
I've voted either in kayfabe or on logical booking/career accomplishments through out this thing. I've hit a cross roads where I can't do both in two matches in this round - Steamboat Vs Edge, and Vader Vs Austin. Both stipulations favour the aforementioned, both Edge and Austin should probably be booked to go through.

I'm making a decision here and now that kayfabe should dictate my votes primarily. Otherwise, there is no differentiation on a year to year basis in this tournament, you'd end up voting the same people every year.

Steamboat/Edge is a different story, as within kayfabe I still think that's the exact type of heavily stipulated match that Edge would find a way to triumph in. Here, there are no loopholes, no tricks that Austin can do. He's tied by the neck to a fucking Minotaur. Tied by the broken freakin' neck to the guy with the best short striking in history.

This would be a war. Prime Austin isn't going to go down easy to anyone. I just think the kayfabe arguments are too, too much for Austin here. Vader is perfectly suited to this gimmick, with Austin absolutely against it. I wouldn't just blindly be taking any big man here - if it's Austin/Umaga of course I take Stone Cold - but this is Vader. A guy who made legit kayfabe impressions and picked up huge wins all over the world - Choshu in Japan, El Canek in Mexico, Sting in North America. A multiple time world champion during a legitimate era of wrestling.

I'm taking Vader. Just the worst draw for Austin.

HBsam31
04-01-2013, 04:21 PM
Austin is in serious trouble here. In any other match i would vote Austin easily. Not in this match. I remember watching Vader in his prime and he was downright scary. Austin is tough as nails, but with that dog collar around his neck I think Vader would just destroy him. I am voting Vader and I think it might even be close.

The Brain
04-01-2013, 08:00 PM
Another point to consider. Austin reached his prime in 1999-2003 or so. In 1997, Owen Hart broke Austin's neck at Summer Slam. Where is the Dog Collar attached? Around Austin's neck. I don't want to sound gruesome here, but Austin with a previously broken neck is gonna have a dog collar on a chain attached to BIG VAN VADER around that same neck? Oh boy, that can't be good for Stone Cold.

I'm surprised it took you so long to bring this up. When I saw Vader was going up against Austing I thought Vader was going out. When I saw dog collar match I thought Vader had a chance. When I saw pin or submission rather than touching the corners I thought that hurt Vader. When I thought about the point mentioned above I really started leaning toward Vader again. (Funny thing is all these thoughts occured in about a 30 second span.) Anyway, my kayfabe mind can see Vader beating Austin. It's a brutal match that suits Vader to perfection and makes Austin vulnerable. I see Austin putting up a hell of a fight but ultimately a 450 pound monster tugging on his fragile neck will be too much for Austin to overcome. Austin doesn't lose any respect because everyone knows about his condition and much like WM13 people appreciate that he just gave it his all. There are still plenty of heros left in this tournament that can try to take Vader down.

EDIT: Submitted my vote after the post and I'm shocked at the voting so far. It's early but I'm surprised to see Vader with a lead. As possibly the second biggest Vader mark here I thought it would be me and IC along with a couple others and Austin would easily win this match. He probably still will but I like the early lead Vader has taken.

D-Man
04-01-2013, 08:53 PM
I've played it over in my head a billion times. I just can't see Austin truly taking control of this match. When you limit his ability to get away from Vader and keep him at a distance, it just takes away all of his offense. I honestly think Vader would gas him out.

By a hair's length, I'm voting Vader.

It's...Baylariat!
04-01-2013, 10:40 PM
I have to go with Vader.

I recall my childhood as a wrestling fan. I remember crying primarily because of wrestling on three occasions.

1) When Earthquake sat on Hogan's chest.
I thought it killed him. That little girl with the Hulk Hogan teddy bear sold it, too. She was in tears so I thought that he was in horrible shape.

2) Ten bell salute for Andre the Giant.
I just remembered seeing him a couple of months before he passed being knocked down by someone, and I thought that had to do with killing him. Hey, I was a kid. I had no clue it was fake until middle school. Stupid Hulk Hogan mini-biography.

3) When Big Van Vader was beating Sting within an inch of his life

ssvHgba3tNU

Vader coming out with that freaky ass helmet with smoke coming out made him double creepy. I had a rat tail because of my fondness of Sting, and here comes this brutal ass big man with half a mask on, beating him to a pulp. And Sting was every bit as big as Austin was during those days.

I have to go with Vader here. Austin could conceivably win this match, but he would need at least two or three Stunners to do it. And I don't see that happening.

It's Vader time.

Big Nick Dudley
04-01-2013, 11:22 PM
I refuse to get too deep here, but come on...

Steve Austin, in his prime, was the toughest bastard in wrestling. Kane, The Undertaker, HBK, HHH, The Rock, Bret Hart, The Big Show, and many others. Watch Steve Austin's matches (1998 and 1999) - size was rarely an issue for Steve Austin. He'd brawl with the bigger guys better than others his size (Bret Hart, HBK). He could take punishment as well as anyone we've ever seen.

I love Vader, but in a tournament like this, there's no way he takes out Austin. If they had this match, Austin wins 10 out of 10 times. Austin uses that chain to his advantage and puts Vader away with a Stunner. Austin takes a shit ton of punishment in the process, but definitely beats Vader.

Oh, and remember, they get 10 feet of chain. It's not like they're hugging one another :shrug:

Hollywood Naitch
04-02-2013, 06:47 AM
In most types of match I would have to go with Austin, but in this one....it was a tough call.

Vader is one of the biggest, meanest, toughest, strongest and stiffest wrestlers in history. He really was one bad motherfucker and being connected to him by a dog collar is not a good situation for anyone, even Stone Cold Steve Austin.

If Vader can take advantage of his superior strength he could get hold of Austin and pound the shit out of him, not many wrestlers can match Vader when it comes to striking. Austin comes close but I think Vader has him beat in this.

The point that made me click the VOTE button for Vader was from IC- Austin broke his neck before he hit his prime...this match is in his prime...he has a weak neck...the collar is tied around his neck...Vader is strong enough to yank on that chain, further damaging Austin's weak neck....Vader wins this for me.

Winner: Vader

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 07:50 AM
I refuse to get too deep here, but come on...

Steve Austin, in his prime, was the toughest bastard in wrestling. Kane, The Undertaker, HBK, HHH, The Rock, Bret Hart, The Big Show, and many others. Watch Steve Austin's matches (1998 and 1999) - size was rarely an issue for Steve Austin. He'd brawl with the bigger guys better than others his size (Bret Hart, HBK). He could take punishment as well as anyone we've ever seen.

I love Vader, but in a tournament like this, there's no way he takes out Austin. If they had this match, Austin wins 10 out of 10 times. Austin uses that chain to his advantage and puts Vader away with a Stunner. Austin takes a shit ton of punishment in the process, but definitely beats Vader.

Oh, and remember, they get 10 feet of chain. It's not like they're hugging one another :shrug:

Again, you're putting too much stock in "how the WWE would book things." You're an unapologetic WWE mark, and I don't blame you for that. We've all drank the WWE Kool-aid at one time or another. The only thing is, I want you to switch your Kool-aid out for a tall glass of Vader-ade.

This match isn't booked in WWE. We're in the International Region, which is Vader's territory. Remember, he was a MULTIPLE time World Champion on 3 different continents. He defeated German great Otto Wanz for a German World Title, he went to Japan and pinned Antonio Inoki in his debut match in Japan (the result of Vader pinning Inoki was a riot that caused NJPW to be banned from the Sumo Hall for years!), and he defeated El Canek for the Mexican World Title. Wanz, Inoki, and Canek were to their respectice countries what Verne Gagne was to the AWA and what Austin was to the WWF. Vader made a career out of destroying those men for their respective World Titles.

So Austin isn't going to be saved by Vince McMahon's bookers this time around. We're in international waters, here, and honestly, maybe nobody in history has the track record Vader has internationally, save for maybe the great Lou Thesz.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-02-2013, 07:55 AM
....betrayed my childhood, went with Vader.

You know sometimes you open one of these tourney threads, look at the stips and your gut choice is made within a second. I loved Austin, grew up during the AE, but Vader is a muthafuckin' beast. Those WCW days are fucked up. The Stong, Cactus Jack matches are cringe-worthy.


I'm gonna be dead against Vader after this.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 08:16 AM
I'm gonna be dead against Vader after this.

Keep an open mind, brother.

You're not betraying anything or anyone by voting for the Greatest Superheavyweight in Pro Wrestling history in an international stipulation match featuring a 10 foot chain attached on one end by a 450 lb Mastadon who can perform textbook moonsaults at attached at the other end to a man's once broken neck.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-02-2013, 08:36 AM
Keep an open mind, brother.

You're not betraying anything or anyone by voting for the Greatest Superheavyweight in Pro Wrestling history in an international stipulation match featuring a 10 foot chain attached on one end by a 450 lb Mastadon who can perform textbook moonsaults at attached at the other end to a man's once broken neck.

I was genuinely scared of Vader in his FEDERATION DAYS!

Well I was 7.


He was 'watered down' by then as I've been told. Also I saw his WCW prime in retrospect and drew 2 pretty conclusions
A) He was Crazy, B) Bill Watts was crazy.

For me the nail here is the region. And the brutality of the stip.


This is gonna be brutal.

Tastycles
04-02-2013, 09:03 AM
Keep an open mind, brother.

You're not betraying anything or anyone by voting for the Greatest Superheavyweight in Pro Wrestling history in an international stipulation match featuring a 10 foot chain attached on one end by a 450 lb Mastadon who can perform textbook moonsaults at attached at the other end to a man's once broken neck.

This is precisely the sort of fan boy argument without relevance that is the bread and butter of Vader's supporters. his ability to do a moonsault is useless here, don't be so fucking ridiculous.

Vader is 6 feet 5 inches tall, meaning his neck is roughly 5'6" off the ground. A professional wrestling turnbuckle is 5 feet taller than the ring apron. That's a combined height when he stands on the turnbuckle of 10'6", some six inches longer than the rope, and that's assuming Austin's neck is at the base of the turnbuckle. If he attempts a moonsault in this match, he is going to choke himself on the rope before he even starts.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 11:36 AM
This is precisely the sort of fan boy argument without relevance that is the bread and butter of Vader's supporters. his ability to do a moonsault is useless here, don't be so fucking ridiculous.

Vader is 6 feet 5 inches tall, meaning his neck is roughly 5'6" off the ground. A professional wrestling turnbuckle is 5 feet taller than the ring apron. That's a combined height when he stands on the turnbuckle of 10'6", some six inches longer than the rope, and that's assuming Austin's neck is at the base of the turnbuckle. If he attempts a moonsault in this match, he is going to choke himself on the rope before he even starts.

His ability to do moonsaults in this match is irrelevant, yes, but it does remind people that you're not dealing with an immoble SHW here, you're dealing with a 450-lb athletic specimen with a streak of brutality that is almost unmatched.

It's a shame that it bothers you so much that Vader gets his fair due on these forums. The forums under rate some guys, the forums over rate some guys - I feel like the due Vader has gotten here over the past 7 years has been very accurate.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 11:37 AM
This reminds me a lot of when I am an instructor for various classes. I spend hours teaching people how to refer to manuals, and go through step by step in everything they have learned....then we go to the practical exercise...and WHAM, blinders are on, they dont use the manual, and look like idiots.

Every year, this is how the gimmick match round goes. Everyone seems like they have a decent brain, a decent handle on things....then we get to the gimmick round, and WHAM, blinders are on, THIS IS JUST A FANTASY WRESTLING TOTALLY KAYFABE TOURNAMENT.

What the fuck happened to the other factors, such as overall quality, contributions to the wrestling indurstry, overall drawing, legacy? You know, the things we vote on all the rest of the fucking tournament?

DERP DAWG COLLAH MATCH, VADER IS A STIFF WORKING HACK UNPROFESSIONAL BULLY WHO INJURES PEOPLE, HE IS DAH WINNAH

How about Steve Austin being in the top three pro wrestlers of all time? How about the fact that besides a gimmick match that may *slightly* favor Vader, doesnt change the fact that Steve Austins ability, carreer, and legacy utterly dwarf Vader's in every shape form and fashion imagineable?

Take your blinders off, this ISNT a fucking Kayfabe fantasy booking only tournament.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 11:39 AM
with a streak of brutality that is almost unmatched.



Fancy way of saying "unprofessional hack, bully, who hurt people on purpose, but literally cried when Shawn Micheals threated to get him fired when he clearly and obviously fucked up a spot in the second biggest ppv of 1996"

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 12:36 PM
What the fuck happened to the other factors, such as overall quality, contributions to the wrestling indurstry, overall drawing, legacy? You know, the things we vote on all the rest of the fucking tournament?

You're right. Let's cancel the tournament from now on. Let's suck ALL Of the fun out of it. Let's just make a thread once per year and discuss only the top draws, regardless of the perception of their in ring performance. Let's have the Hogan / Austin / Sammartino / Rock / Goldberg / Cena / Gagne / Inoki thread every year and just stop with the tournament itself.

DERP DAWG COLLAH MATCH, VADER IS A STIFF WORKING HACK UNPROFESSIONAL BULLY WHO INJURES PEOPLE, HE IS DAH WINNAH

Part of the tournament. As opposed to <in best nerd voice> "Um, ok, so let's take a look at the coefficients of the impact of the merchandise sales multiplied by the sell outs and compare them to the TV ratings, and only then will we know who the winner should be. snort.

How about Steve Austin being in the top three pro wrestlers of all time? How about the fact that besides a gimmick match that may *slightly* favor Vader, doesnt change the fact that Steve Austins ability, carreer, and legacy utterly dwarf Vader's in every shape form and fashion imagineable?

If that's how you choose to vote, that's on you. It undermines the entire concept of the tournament, and if you want to play that card, since this IS the international region, I'll gladly argue that Vader is a vastly more successful international success than Austin, who is a primarily North American name.

Take your blinders off, this ISNT a fucking Kayfabe fantasy booking only tournament.

Take your blinders off. Not all conversations have to end with who drew what. Stop insulting the members of this forum who want to enjoy a fantasy tournament and make an argument that has something OTHER to do with draw. You have your criteria, don't insult those of us who use a different criteria, thanks.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 12:50 PM
You're right. Let's cancel the tournament from now on. Let's suck ALL Of the fun out of it.

If that's how you choose to vote, that's on you. It undermines the entire concept of the tournament, and if you want to play that card, since this IS the international region, I'll gladly argue that Vader is a vastly more successful international success than Austin, who is a primarily North American name.



Take your blinders off. Not all conversations have to end with who drew what. Stop insulting the members of this forum who want to enjoy a fantasy tournament and make an argument that has something OTHER to do with draw. You have your criteria, don't insult those of us who use a different criteria, thanks.

Huh, its funny that "because its fun" becomes a proper reasoning behind a vote when it benefits YOUR guy. Cwazzyyyy.

I never said all conversations begin and end with drawing power, but it certainley deserves to be an equal factor whenc onsidering all things.

it does not undermine the entire concept of the tournament. the torunament was founded on the premise I am talking about. Turning it into kayfabe fantasy hour when its convienent for who you want to win is what undermines the tournament.


Part of the tournament. As opposed to <in best nerd voice> "Um, ok, so let's take a look at the coefficients of the impact of the merchandise sales multiplied by the sell outs and compare them to the TV ratings, and only then will we know who the winner should be. snort.



So wait, its part of the tournament(you know, like I just said), or the entire reason to base your vote? Care to make up your mind which stance your taking here?

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 12:57 PM
Huh, its funny that "because its fun" becomes a proper reasoning behind a vote when it benefits YOUR guy. Cwazzyyyy.

I never said all conversations begin and end with drawing power, but it certainley deserves to be an equal factor whenc onsidering all things.

it does not undermine the entire concept of the tournament. the torunament was founded on the premise I am talking about. Turning it into kayfabe fantasy hour when its convienent for who you want to win is what undermines the tournament.

Wrong again. I am not voting for Vader because it's fun. I'm voting for Vader because I legitimately think he's the most talented and dominant Super Heavyweight in a profession often dominated by those larger than life, and I believe that he deserves his due as one of the best wrestlers of all time.

Do you want to know where else you're wrong? When you claim I don't consider drawing power. Why do you think Germany put Vader over Otto Wanz? Why do you think Japan put Vader over Antonio Inoki? Why do you think Mexico put Vader over Canek? Because he was one of the biggest international draws there was! And to boot, he was put over the likes of Sting here in the US on a consistent basis.

I'm not trying to argue for my boy Scott Norton here. I like Scott Norton and think he's criminally under rated, but I am also realistic. I back Vader the way I do because I believe he's an all time great, despite the moronic booking he got in the WWE.

Vader has an edge in this match in almost every conceivable way. He was a bigger international draw that Austin, and this is the international region. I'm happy to concede (which I did in my initial post) that Austin is more popular and was a bigger deal in North America, but Vader is still a 3-time former WCW World Champion who was a dominant force in North America in his own right! Kayfabe, Vader demolishes Austin.

I hope Vader eats your face on Friday. I'm handing him a print out of this debate.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-02-2013, 01:03 PM
Fancy way of saying "unprofessional hack, bully, who hurt people on purpose, but literally cried when Shawn Micheals threated to get him fired when he clearly and obviously fucked up a spot in the second biggest ppv of 1996"

I know I voted Vader, but this might be the most wonderful thing I've read here in this thread. Please confirm this as real.

I'll be honest with you. I went with Vader coz I really do think he has more experience in the International Region, His badassery and what not is secondary but the venue took it for me.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 01:05 PM
Why do you think Germany put Vader over Otto Wanz?

bigger international draw that Austin, and this is the international region.

Seriously, are you fucking drunk right now? Do you think these arguments are helping your cause? :lmao: Bigger international draw than the highest drawing star in the history of professional wrestling?


Sure, he was such a powerhouse in North America, what with those legendary high drawing feuds with Ron Simmons and the like for the mega fail bleeding dollars WCW. Totally.

Should have just stuck with your (still flimsy, but at least slightly true) kayfabe match advantage.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 01:07 PM
I know I voted Vader, but this might be the most wonderful thing I've read here in this thread. Please confirm this as real.



It is. Jim Cornette, talks about it in detail in one of his shoot videos, and you can clearly see the spot he is reffering to if you watch the ME of SummerSlam 96.

People call him "brutal" and "vicous" because he was an unprofessional bully who took liberties with guys who trusted him with their health and well being.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-02-2013, 01:15 PM
It is. Jim Cornette, talks about it in detail in one of his shoot videos, and you can clearly see the spot he is reffering to if you watch the ME of SummerSlam 96.

People call him "brutal" and "vicous" because he was an unprofessional bully who took liberties with guys who trusted him with their health and well being.

Hey man I've called The Rock a piece of shit when he hit Foley 21 times when he said he would hit him like '7 times' before the match.

So, when I saw Vader pummel Foley's face with those forearm shots, I fucking hated him. And the fact of the matter is Foley's made more careers than Pat Patterson's fetish for black dicks. The Orndoff story put a smile on my face...say what you want about his political connection backstage, Vader got his ass whooped. Warrior stood upto Bill Watts, who was the promoter for fucks' sake.


IN short, I.Don't.Like.Vader. I loved it when Shawn beat him. But, BUT, the odds are stacked just too high. And since it is the region you gotta give it to Vader. The stip also kinda favours Vader, as he is known to have downright, blood n' gut brutal matches. I fuckin hate it, but its Vader here.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 01:19 PM
Seriously, are you fucking drunk right now?

I can't drink at work, and you know this.

Do you think these arguments are helping your cause? :lmao: Bigger international draw than the highest drawing star in the history of professional wrestling?

One of the biggest in North American Pro Wrestling history. You tell me to take my blinders off and yet you seem to be settling on the ethnocentric "Austin was a bigger draw in North America so we should vote for him in the tournament." Again - why even have the tournament if that's your only argument?

Sure, he was such a powerhouse in North America, what with those legendary high drawing feuds with Ron Simmons and the like for the mega fail bleeding dollars WCW. Totally.

Vader wasn't at fault for WCW's mismanagement. You can burn Hulk Hogan and Goldberg on the same stake for 2000-2001 WCW, and burn Bret Hart on BOTH stakes for WWF in 1993-1996 and WCW in 2000, BTW.

Should have just stuck with your (still flimsy, but at least slightly true) kayfabe match advantage.

I like how you call it flimsy with no back up. It's hardly flimsy. It's rock solid. Let's break your neck and then attach a 10 foot chain and a 450-lb man to that same neck and see how confident YOU are.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 01:29 PM
One of the biggest in North American Pro Wrestling history. You tell me to take my blinders off and yet you seem to be settling on the ethnocentric "Austin was a bigger draw in North America so we should vote for him in the tournament." Again - why even have the tournament if that's your only argument?


Vader wasn't at fault for WCW's mismanagement. You can burn Hulk Hogan and Goldberg on the same stake for 2000-2001 WCW, and burn Bret Hart on BOTH stakes for WWF in 1993-1996 and WCW in 2000, BTW.


I like how you call it flimsy with no back up. It's hardly flimsy. It's rock solid. Let's break your neck and then attach a 10 foot chain and a 450-lb man to that same neck and see how confident YOU are.

It isnt my only argument. Up until this point, when your shaky foundation was made to seem foolish, the "match advantage" was YOUR only argument. There are many factors. I am presenting that any slight match advantage Vader may have doesnt outweigh the overwelming drawing and overall carreer advantage that Austin holds. It isnt a complex argument, really. Try to keep up, pal.

So then you admit the company was bleeding dollars during the same period you just trotted out to make the claim he was a "powerhouse draw"....Once again, I invite you to make up your mind what you mean. Pick any time period you like, Steve Austin drew more in a YEAR than Vader did in his entire carreer. Also, the difference between Vader and those others you named, (as any moron could figure out) is that they, at other points outside of awful booking, were capable of drawing so much as a fucking buffalo head nickel. Unlike Vader.

Feel free to come down here and break my neck, and we can try it out. My confidence will remain the same, as im sure Steve Austins would. Note he wrestled at WM 19 less than 24 hours after having a minor heart attack and almost dying.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 01:37 PM
It isnt my only argument. Up until this point, when your shaky foundation was made to seem foolish, the "match advantage" was YOUR only argument. There are many factors. I am presenting that any slight match advantage Vader may have doesnt outweigh the overwelming drawing and overall carreer advantage that Austin holds. It isnt a complex argument, really. Try to keep up, pal.

So then you admit the company was bleeding dollars during the same period you just trotted out to make the claim he was a "powerhouse draw"....Once again, I invite you to make up your mind what you mean. Pick any time period you like, Steve Austin drew more in a YEAR than Vader did in his entire carreer. Also, the difference between Vader and those others you named, (as any moron could figure out) is that they, at other points outside of awful booking, were capable of drawing so much as a fucking buffalo head nickel. Unlike Vader.

Feel free to come down here and break my neck, and we can try it out. My confidence will remain the same, as im sure Steve Austins would. Note he wrestled at WM 19 less than 24 hours after having a minor heart attack and almost dying.

Getting a little tired of having you put words in my mouth that were never there.

The "match advantage" was never my only argument. I'd make a case for Vader in any match. I have a stronger case in a stip match like this.

Vader's stip advantage isn't slight, and since I prefer to take the Kayfabe approach to this tournament, Austin's drawing power in the US doesn't really impress me much. Furthermore, since this is the international region, Austin's drawing power in the US matters less to me. I have now THREE TIMES conceded that Austin is the greater US draw, and I would never change that tune.

I explained that Vader was a powerhouse draw internationally and a strong draw in the US. He didn't have a ton to work with in WCW in the early 90's besides Sting, the most popular guy on their roster, and he still went over Sting more often than not. When Hogan broke in to WCW, Vader matched up very well with him and has the distinction of being the only man to kick out of the Hogan leg drop at a one count.

PRO WRESTLING drew more during Austin's time, and it wasn't just because of Austin. PRO WRESTLING drew less during the early and mid 90's and it wasn't just because of Vader. The product over all missed the mark with American audiences, but for what it was, Vader was one of the best. When wrestling went with an edgier product in the late 90's the scene exploded. Austin had a lot to do with it, but he wasn't the whole equation. Hogan and nWo started that, Austin rode the wave to new heights. No question about ANY of that, nor have I ever denied it.

Out of curiosity, why do you give the other guys I named the pass for "awful booking" but Vader is just deficient in your eyes? How does that make anyone OTHER than you, a moron? I'm genuinely curious. And how come Austin wasn't booked over international stars in their home countries the way Vader was? You keep saying Vader was an awful draw, but his reputation on the international circuit begs to differ.

I have to go to a work function - to be continued. In the mean time, folks, keep voting Vader.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 01:46 PM
Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses

Good, glad we could get down to you admitting that Austin's drawing power and overall carreer absolutely dwarfs Vaders in every way. The reason the other guys got a pass, like I already quite plainly wrote, is because their diminished drawing power were simple rough spots in their carreers/the wrestling world/booking, and they were giant draws for the majority of their time on top, or elsewere in their carreer, wereas the minimal drawing power of Vader was the entirety of his carreer. You call me a moron, but apparently im the one of the two of us who can read.

He went over in the international scene because he was a huge american who worked stiff (see, unprofessional) or shall we revisit the same sorts of arguments that sqaushed Stan Hansen in earlier rounds of the torunament? Not to mention the fact that the time in which these bookings took place were a different world than the wrestling world dominated by Steve Austin later. The WWE wasnt exaclty loaning him out to work matinees with All-Inoki-eggdome-supersport-pro in 1998.

Tastycles
04-02-2013, 06:28 PM
It's a shame that it bothers you so much that Vader gets his fair due on these forums.

Are you fucking joking? A fat guy who was over in Japan and over in the US for less than 6 months is about to beat Stone Cold Steve Austin. Fair due indeed!

Vader was alright. His presence in the top 32 wrestlers of all time, which is what this round represents don't forget, is a stretch but I can just about buy it. Had he not faced one of the best wrestlers of the last 15 years in the previous round, I'd probably voted him to get here. The fact you got him to the top 4 once is testament to your ability to post well, but it doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

Voters, ask yourself a simple question, who is more worthy of a place in the last 16 of a best of all time wrestling tournament? Vader or Stone Cold Steve Austin?

Steamboat Ricky
04-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Always a funny time of year when IC25 gets half the forums drinking his Vader juice when Vader goes up against a legitimate top draw in the history of wrestling.

With the exception of a year long NJPW title reign in 1989, Vader was a transitional champion, at best, being booked as the monster that helped the good guy get over more. Guys like Steve Austin.

Steve Austin made a career of getting over against overwhelming odds. In 98 he won the Royal Rumble despite having the entire locker room against him. He beat Shawn Michaels for the WWF Title with Mike Tyson, a then DX member, serving as the guest enforcer. After being completely screwed by Vince and subsequently being fired, he was able to beat The Undertaker in a Buried Alive match, find a loophole after being screwed by Vince AGAIN in order to get into the main event of Wrestlemania and win for the second year in a row, despite the boss of the company being completely against him.

Aside from being the most successful draw in the history of the business, Stone Cold made a career out of getting over against obstacles like Vader, and Vader, likewise, made a career out of making guys like Stone Cold Steve Austin more popular.

Don't drink the IC25 Vader Juice. Vote Austin.

Shocky
04-02-2013, 07:20 PM
Steve Austin always overcomes the odds, is that the general consensus the pro Austin card is trying to play?

We can always start with him losing in a strap match, essentially what this match is, to Savio Vega. This wasn't the Ringmaster, this was Stone Cold Steve Austin, one month removed from his King of the Ring. No, he wasn't the Stone Cold, but he still lost to Savio Vega in a strap match, Savio Vega. All the while Vader has a Strap Match victory over Sting, who was the biggest babyface of WCW at the time. Advantage Vader.

Stone Cold overcomes the odds.
Wrestlemania 14: He overcomes the odds by having the referee in his back pocket, bravo.
King of the Ring 98: He lost a first blood match to Kane.
Breakdown 98: He lost a triple threat match to the Undertaker and Kane.
Royal Rumble 99: He lost the Royal Rumble match to Vince Fucking McMahon.

So there are examples of Austin overcoming the odds, but Steve Austin isn't fucking Super Cena. The man loses, and lost quite often when the odds were stacked against him.

FitFinlay4Life
04-02-2013, 07:29 PM
Vader went over Canek (a guy so big he has wins over Thesz, Hogan and Andre) in his home country of Mexico. Why wouldn't he go over a redneck Texan (no matter how big a deal he is the good ole US of A)? The stip suits Vader because he can target Austin's neck in a way that has never been done before. The venue suits Vader because he has a history of going over the best here. The region suits Vader because he was an international star the old fashioned way - by winning matches all over the world against local champions. The deck is stacked against Austin here but not in a feel good way - Vader could and should go over here.

IT'S TIME... IT'S TIME... IT'S... well y'all know the rest.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 07:34 PM
Are you fucking joking? A fat guy who was over in Japan and over in the US for less than 6 months is about to beat Stone Cold Steve Austin. Fair due indeed!

Vader was over for years in the US.

And It didn't take you long to devolve into the "fat guy" argument. Because wrestling fans hate fat people, right? Don't be a bully, Tasty, be a star.

Voters, ask yourself a simple question, who is more worthy of a place in the last 16 of a best of all time wrestling tournament? Vader or Stone Cold Steve Austin?

And then ask yourself - if we're only concerned with who the 16 best wrestlers in the world are, why to we hold a 128 man tournament every year? Why not scrap the tournament, pick the 8 biggest draws, and have the same boring, variable-less discussion year in, year out?

The matches, the stipulations - that's what makes the WZ Tournament such a big event. That's also why we've had a variety of winners.

With the exception of a year long NJPW title reign in 1989, Vader was a transitional champion, at best, being booked as the monster that helped the good guy get over more. Guys like Steve Austin.

So no more heels in the tournament. Faces only.

No shit the heels exist to help the good guys get over. It's sort of the reason for the heels in the first place, and the entire basis of professional wrestling. Heels still win, though. Owen Hart won King of the Ring as a heel. So did Harley Race, Vader's manager. (Have I mentioned yet that one of the great minds of all time in wrestling is Vader's manager?)

Don't drink the Haterade. Drink the Vaderade.

Big Sexy
04-02-2013, 07:43 PM
I don't care if this was a "who looks better in a red mask" match, Steve Austin would win. Vader was on top of WCW during it's absolute lowest point (yes even lower then 2000-2001). When he was champion he feuded with the likes of Ron Simmons, Cactus Jack, Davey Boy Smith, and Sting. While he won all of those feuds he also lost to almost all of those guys including multiple times to Sting. And for those who think early 90's blonde Sting was Sting at his best, you are delusional. It would have been a perfect time to have Sting carry the company but instead he just had a couple short, uneventful reigns. In fact Sting successfully defended the WCW title a total of ZERO times on PPV during that period. Once Flair came back Vader dropped the title to him shortly after. Vader was never able to defeat Flair one on one and was never able to defeat Hogan either. Once the big names were around he eventually dropped to the upper mid card.

Now onto Austin. He along with The Rock and Hulk Hogan are the 3 biggest names/draws the wrestling world has seen. Austin led the charge that brought the WWE from near collapse to the winner of the Monday Night Wars. He was constantly put in no win situations and the majority of the time he still came out on top.

Obviously a dog collar match wasn't the best draw for Austin but he would still find a way to win. Because of the stipulation the match becomes closer but it in no way gives Vader the victory. He just isn't in Austin's league.

Steamboat Ricky
04-02-2013, 07:59 PM
Steve Austin always overcomes the odds, is that the general consensus the pro Austin card is trying to play?

We can always start with him losing in a strap match, essentially what this match is, to Savio Vega. This wasn't the Ringmaster, this was Stone Cold Steve Austin, one month removed from his King of the Ring. No, he wasn't the Stone Cold, but he still lost to Savio Vega in a strap match, Savio Vega. All the while Vader has a Strap Match victory over Sting, who was the biggest babyface of WCW at the time. Advantage Vader.

Stone Cold overcomes the odds.
Wrestlemania 14: He overcomes the odds by having the referee in his back pocket, bravo.
King of the Ring 98: He lost a first blood match to Kane.
Breakdown 98: He lost a triple threat match to the Undertaker and Kane.
Royal Rumble 99: He lost the Royal Rumble match to Vince Fucking McMahon.

So there are examples of Austin overcoming the odds, but Steve Austin isn't fucking Super Cena. The man loses, and lost quite often when the odds were stacked against him.

You're comparing Sting in WCW in like...1994...to 98-99 Austin in terms of overness as a babyface??? :lmao:

Ok sweet. So, Vader beat Sting in a strap match...a match that is somewhat similar to a dog collar match...thus making Vader an automatic favorite to beat Steve Austin in a similar gimmick match. This is like the argument every year that whoever won the BCS National Championship game in NCAA Football could probably beat whoever has the worst record in the NFL...except...you're taking it to a much higher level...that whoever wins the BCS game could beat the Super Bowl Champion. Steve Austin in 98-99 was so many leaps and bounds ahead of Sting in 94 in terms of babyface heat that there isn't enough room on the calculator to crunch the numbers.

Ok. He lost to Kane in a first blood match. That Undertaker interfered in...and in which Kane had 1% of his skin showing. So...he didn't win. Mmmmm. But he did win it back the following night and then went on to beat Undie at Summerslam at the big payoff event. So...Austin wins in the grand scheme of things.

Austin always finds his way in the payoff matches and wins in the payoff matches. So, in terms of booking...you don't book Austin to lose to a C-level wrestler in the 3rd round of your big payoff tournament. I'm sure that someone will bring up Deadly Game and that he lost to a midcard-Mankind at the time, but that wasn't the big payoff. Austin won that big payoff.

Austin wins big payoffs. The Vaders of the world help the Austins get there. Austin gets booked to win here, period.


And IC...how many notorious heels have won the WZ Tournament? What's the percentage of heels that win in the main-event at Wrestlemania? Ah, that's right. This is an industry where, eventually, the good guy wins the day. With Austin...you have THE BIGGEST GOOD GUY EVER. He doesn't lose to a role player like Vader.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 08:09 PM
And once again, Steamboat Ricky is committing the cardinal sins of the WZ Tournament.

1. He's overvaluing the WWE. Top guy in the WWE must translate into automatic victor.

2. He's focusing solely on booking, which defeats the purpose of the tournament. To that, I remind you that in the International Region, the WWE booking HAS NO FUCKING RELEVANCE. Vince isn't booking this tournament or this match. It's international, which means it's Vader's wheelhouse. How are you not getting this? Do you even READ my posts, or just post out your own ass?

3. Overvaluing faces / /popularity. Austin was popular, so he wins a kayfabe tournament automatically? This isn't a "favorite wrestler" tournament, despite how badly you want it to be.

Mighty NorCal
04-02-2013, 08:22 PM
This isn't a "favorite wrestler" tournament, despite how badly you want it to be.

The utter grandeur of YOU posting THIS in spite of overwelming evidence that Vader isnt even in the same class as Austin in numerous components that someone should consider when voting in this tournament is fucking delicous. Hilarious. I no longer need to eat dinner, nor watch any tv for the rest of the night.

Steamboat Ricky
04-02-2013, 08:28 PM
And once again, Steamboat Ricky is committing the cardinal sins of the WZ Tournament.

Should be a good time.

1. He's overvaluing the WWE. Top guy in the WWE must translate into automatic victor.

Overvaluing the WWE. You know...the most successful professional wrestling company in the history of the world. Better go back and vote for Ken Shamrock since he was once the top guy in a budding NWA/TNA. :rolleyes:

2. He's focusing solely on booking, which defeats the purpose of the tournament.

I forgot that this isn't a fake tournament about fake wrestling, a fake sport that has pre-determined matches whose outcomes are decided by someone called a booker. I didn't realize that this was a legitimate fighting contest, but I guess I should have realized that you thought it was...you know...since Vader purposely beat the crap out of his colleagues on a nightly basis. I forgot that.

To that, I remind you that in the International Region, the WWE booking HAS NO FUCKING RELEVANCE.

Most popular wrestling company in the world. If Steve Austin would have been booked in NJPW, he would have gone over to draw more money for successive shows. It's how the industry works.


Vince isn't booking this tournament or this match.

So wait...you're admitting that it's predetermined? Flip-flopping your argument...one of the CARDINAL SINS OF THE WZ TOURNAMENT. :p

It's international, which means it's Vader's wheelhouse.

International. Where Vader had to go because he couldn't draw a dime in the States...which is what Steve Austin was doing better than anyone had in the history of fake wrestling. So, you're right, Austin didn't go International...because in terms of revenue, Vader's international scene was minor leagues comparatively.

So who wins? The Durham Bulls or the New York Yankees?

How are you not getting this? Do you even READ my posts, or just post out your own ass?

I have many talents of which you are not aware.

3. Overvaluing faces / /popularity.

Breaking news: Drew McIntyre is taking on Kwee Wee in the main event this year at Wrestlemania, because being a babyface and/or popular doesn't matter that much in generating revenue in wrestling.


Austin was popular, so he wins a kayfabe tournament automatically?

No. But he beats a guy like Vader, who...kayfabe-wise...is consistently defeated by the likes of babyfaces like Austin.

This isn't a "favorite wrestler" tournament, despite how badly you want it to be.

Be it "kayfabe" or through an objective lens, it would be an absolute injustice to wrestling for Vader to go over Steve Austin, objectively the best draw in wrestling history.

IrishCanadian25
04-02-2013, 08:35 PM
The utter grandeur of YOU posting THIS in spite of overwelming evidence that Vader isnt even in the same class as Austin in numerous components that someone should consider when voting in this tournament is fucking delicous. Hilarious. I no longer need to eat dinner, nor watch any tv for the rest of the night.

I call bullshit. You don't skip a) food or b) TV for anything other than a) sex, b) creatine, or c) sex with creatine.

Go back and read my first post. I make quite clear my trepidation towards the very real possibility that anonymous internet posters will see the names and vote for the more popular Steve Austin without making a cogent argument.

Rather than go back and forth with each Vader-hater, I'll merely reiterate the reasons why Vader wins this match.

1. Attaching a 10 foot chain to a man's once broken neck and placing a brutal 450-lb monster with World Championships on three different continents does not bode well for said man-with-broken neck.

2. Big Van Vader is the greatest Superheavyweight of all time - he has Austin's number in strength and speed, does not give up anything in the way of speed or agility, matches Austin in toughness and brutality, and has one of the greatest minds in wrestling history, Harley Race, as his manager.

3. While Vader dominates this contest in a kayfabe sense, which is how I view each of these matches, the idea that Vader should lose because of Austin's drawing power is a loose argument. Vader was booked to become the World Champion in several countries, often at the expense of the local hero, which was not a common occurrence. He went over Otto Wanz for a World Title in Germany, Sting for a World Title in the US, El Canek for a World Title in Mexico, and Tatsumi Fujinami for a World Title in Japan. Steve Austin, on the other hand, never accomplished anything outside of a North American promotion.

4. Vader's strength, speed, brutality, and toughness will overmatch Steve Austin and his bum neck, popularity notwithstanding.

The Brain
04-02-2013, 09:21 PM
Here’s the thing about Austin being a top draw; this tournament is filled with top draws. Being a top draw pretty much automatically gets you into the third round, but once we get to the gimmicks I think it’s best to use a little more imagination. Otherwise, like IC has said, we may as well just make this an eight man tournament with the same names every year. It’s not unreasonable for a top draw like Austin to lose to someone like Vader because there will be another top draw in the next round to try to take Vader out. This particular match gives Vader a chance to beat Austin and give us some fresh matches in the later rounds while still allowing the fans to go home happy after one of their other favorite draws wins the tournament.

If you want to vote on popularity and drawing ability, and you are perfectly within your right to do so, then vote Austin. If you want to use a little imagination and think about how a match might play out then give it a little more thought. You might still decide to vote for Austin. That’s fine. I almost voted for him too. I do see a scenario where Vader can get past Austin so I gave my vote to the mastodon.

Bernkastel
04-02-2013, 09:21 PM
Well, this thread has been a clusterfuck, but I might as well throw in my two cents. I voted for Stone Cold, because he was a much bigger and more popular star than Vader. Vader's prime was in Japan. He did not reach the heights in WWE or WCW as he did in New Japan. In New Japan he beat Inoki 7 times; but he also lost to Inoki 22 times. Not to mention Hashimoto - NJPW's other big draw - he has a record of 17 wins and 23 losses. Vader held the IWGP world title 3 times, and two of those reigns were just barely over a month long. The other was just under a year.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=145

Also keep in mind that this was in the early 90's; New Japan was making more money than All Japan, but as I pointed out in the Undy/Misawa thread, under Misawa All Japan became a credible powerhouse again.

In All Japan in the late 90's Vader - post WWE and WCW runs - won the Triple Crown and held it for just over a month before dropping it to Misawa - the flagship star - he held it for 3 months before Vader got it back.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=24

Vader held it for 2 months before dropping to Kobashi, who was a lesser star than Misawa. A few months later saw the creation of NOAH when Misawa split from All Japan, and Vader followed him. He held the GNC tag titles, but did not amount to anything else.

IC is right to say that Vader was a big star with longevity as a big star; but he was never the BIGGEST star, nor was he ever impactful as a champion. Stone Cold was the biggest star in WWE in the 90's, and his title reigns were among the most significant in company history. Vader's reigns were usually dull, and lasted only a couple months or less. Sure, he did beat Misawa and had a long reign, but at that point Vader was nothing but an glorified attraction. And his popularity was nowhere near Misawa's - who was basically the Stone Cold of Japan at the time.

So for the TL;DR version I voted Stone Cold because he was the bigger star and would have won this match regardless. We aren't booking feuds here; just one a off. And in a one off there's no way that Austin would lose to Vader.

PsychoBlack
04-02-2013, 10:02 PM
Well, this thread has been a clusterfuck, but I might as well throw in my two cents. I voted for Stone Cold, because he was a much bigger and more popular star than Vader. Vader's prime was in Japan. He did not reach the heights in WWE or WCW as he did in New Japan. In New Japan he beat Inoki 7 times; but he also lost to Inoki 22 times. Not to mention Hashimoto - NJPW's other big draw - he has a record of 17 wins and 23 losses. Vader held the IWGP world title 3 times, and two of those reigns were just barely over a month long. The other was just under a year.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=145

Also keep in mind that this was in the early 90's; New Japan was making more money than All Japan, but as I pointed out in the Undy/Misawa thread, under Misawa All Japan became a credible powerhouse again.

In All Japan in the late 90's Vader - post WWE and WCW runs - won the Triple Crown and held it for just over a month before dropping it to Misawa - the flagship star - he held it for 3 months before Vader got it back.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=24

Vader held it for 2 months before dropping to Kobashi, who was a lesser star than Misawa. A few months later saw the creation of NOAH when Misawa split from All Japan, and Vader followed him. He held the GNC tag titles, but did not amount to anything else.

IC is right to say that Vader was a big star with longevity as a big star; but he was never the BIGGEST star, nor was he ever impactful as a champion. Stone Cold was the biggest star in WWE in the 90's, and his title reigns were among the most significant in company history. Vader's reigns were usually dull, and lasted only a couple months or less. Sure, he did beat Misawa and had a long reign, but at that point Vader was nothing but an glorified attraction. And his popularity was nowhere near Misawa's - who was basically the Stone Cold of Japan at the time.

So for the TL;DR version I voted Stone Cold because he was the bigger star and would have won this match regardless. We aren't booking feuds here; just one a off. And in a one off there's no way that Austin would lose to Vader.

Must you make it a point to suck Misawa's dick in every thread you post in?

In a regular match this would be fine, Austin goes over Vader because he's a bigger draw. The third round serves the purpose of throwing that out of the window. Vader has a chain wrapped around Austin's reconstructed neck and has the power to do whatever he wants with him. Austin can't win this match he's outmatched physically and his character isn't smart enough to back away from a fight with the monster.

Vader wins.

Bernkastel
04-02-2013, 10:23 PM
Must you make it a point to suck Misawa's dick in every thread you post in?

Because Vader's prime came when he worked in Japan, and he worked with Misawa during his :shrug:

It's not a hard concept.

In a regular match this would be fine, Austin goes over Vader because he's a bigger draw. The third round serves the purpose of throwing that out of the window.

It does? I had no fucking idea that we were booking feuds here... oh wait, we aren't. so why should the gimmick matter when neither guy is really all that affected?

Vader has a chain wrapped around Austin's reconstructed neck and has the power to do whatever he wants with him. Austin can't win this match he's outmatched physically and his character isn't smart enough to back away from a fight with the monster.

So Austin loses because he's weaker than Vader? Did you happen to catch the shit arguments thread where I said that apparently popularity means nothing, but size does? That's referring to this thread.

And apparently Austin is stupid for engaging Vader in a match where he has no choice... don't be retarded. In a one off there's no way Austin loses a match to an inferior wrestler, when the gimmick isn't actually a detriment to either.

PsychoBlack
04-02-2013, 10:46 PM
Because Vader's prime came when he worked in Japan, and he worked with Misawa during his :shrug:

It's not a hard concept.
I'd say Vader's prime extended after he left Japan into his run in WCW and ended when he got to the WWF, but, whatever I'm sure you'll find another way to say Misawa's great here in a thread that has nothing to do with him.



It does? I had no fucking idea that we were booking feuds here... oh wait, we aren't. so why should the gimmick matter when neither guy is really all that affected?
We aren't booking feuds, we're voting oh who would go over in random gimmick matches. If we were just voting on who was the bigger star and who sold more T-shirts what fun would this tournament be?


So Austin loses because he's weaker than Vader? Did you happen to catch the shit arguments thread where I said that apparently popularity means nothing, but size does? That's referring to this thread.
No, Austin loses because he has a chain around his reconstructed neck and on the other end stands a 6 foot 6 450 pound monster who wants to kill him.

And apparently Austin is stupid for engaging Vader in a match where he has no choice... don't be retarded. In a one off there's no way Austin loses a match to an inferior wrestler, when the gimmick isn't actually a detriment to either.
First of all I must say your quite childish with your constant use of the word "retard". "Retards" can't help themselves and have no choice except to be the way that they are I someone should have taught you better down the road.
Now, no Austin's not stupid for taking the fight to Vader it's just not smart to go head up with someone who's bigger, faster, and stronger than you are in a match like this because once your in your in and you cant go back and re think your strategy. Ric Flair, a man similar in size to Austin defeated Vader using a stick and move strategy, could you see Austin doing that? Me neither

Vote Vader

deem
04-02-2013, 11:08 PM
Ok Echelon, you've got your pet peeves in this tournament, that's cool. A lot of the things that irritate you irritate me too. I got my own. Number one is people that say "xxx was more popular, he would win" with no regard to anything else.

That's a pet peeve because it entirely destroys this tournament. I enjoy this tournament a lot, how boring would it get if you randomly rotated between Hogan and Austin winning every year due to them being the biggest draws ever, and thats it. Tune in for WZ tournament 2014, where we eagerly await the draw when we can work out exactly who gets how far! See that Bret Hart has no one that's a statistically bigger draw up until the quarter final, that's going to be a good run for him before he loses to Austin. Sure he beat him a lot in real life, doesn't matter, Austin's the bigger draw!

Yeah, that's my biggest peeve. What exactly are you debating when you say a) the gimmick doesn't matter and b) No way Austin loses to Vader. What's even the point of having gimmick matches with that attitude. What's the point of the entire tournament with that attitude. This is just about the best gimmick draw Vader could of got, for numerous reasons stated. Deflecting all those with "it doesn't matter, Austin wouldn't lose to Vader" renders almost every match pointless.

I know you're trying to make a point to defend Austin going over, but how can this be fun when treating it like that. If everyone did the same, this whole thing becomes worthless. I don't want that to happen, it's the only time I'm semi-active on a wrestling board now when I used to love it.

If you want to murder the WZ tournament, vote for Austin. If you want to preserve what it is, either justify Austin better than "he's a big name" or Vote Vader.

There's plenty of fine Austin arguments in this thread btw, I'm not shooting on all the Stone Cold votes :).

Bernkastel
04-02-2013, 11:25 PM
I'd say Vader's prime extended after he left Japan into his run in WCW and ended when he got to the WWF, but, whatever I'm sure you'll find another way to say Misawa's great here in a thread that has nothing to do with him.

Apparently you lack the ability to read properly, or you wouldn't have missed where I said Vader's prime in Japan came when he was working with New Japan. Not All Japan. He was basically a transitional champion no matter what promotion he worked for, as I pointed out.

We aren't booking feuds, we're voting oh who would go over in random gimmick matches.

And that's the bigger star; you don't book bigger stars to lose one off's. You'd have a valid argument if this was a match that 100% favored the weaker star. Like Kane vs Austin in a first blood match...

If we were just voting on who was the bigger star and who sold more T-shirts what fun would this tournament be?

People say this shit every year, and yet Hogan, Rikidozan, Santo - the three biggest stars of the major countries that have pro wrestling - have never won before. In the end the tournament always comes down to a popularity contest anyway.

No, Austin loses because he has a chain around his reconstructed neck and on the other end stands a 6 foot 6 450 pound monster who wants to kill him.

So Austin is helpless and can't defend himself, and just lets Vader hit him? That has to be the dumbest thing I've read the entire tournament.

Now, no Austin's not stupid for taking the fight to Vader it's just not smart to go head up with someone who's bigger, faster, and stronger than you are in a match like this because once your in your in and you cant go back and re think your strategy.

And yet that's exactly what Austin was known for his entire career. He'd fight big guys like Undertaker, Kane, and Big Show head on and beat them because he was an ass kicker... that was his gimmick.

And the childish card coming from the guy constantly downgrading the popularity argument, to try and justify a vote for his favorite, sounds really ignorant.

Ric Flair, a man similar in size to Austin defeated Vader using a stick and move strategy, could you see Austin doing that? Me neither

Last I checked Austin wasn't Ric Flair. Nice try though.

PsychoBlack
04-03-2013, 01:57 AM
Apparently you lack the ability to read properly, or you wouldn't have missed where I said Vader's prime in Japan came when he was working with New Japan. Not All Japan. He was basically a transitional champion no matter what promotion he worked for, as I pointed out.
So why'd you mention Misawa? Actually I don't even care, I've realized logic isn't your strong suit.


And that's the bigger star; you don't book bigger stars to lose one off's. You'd have a valid argument if this was a match that 100% favored the weaker star. Like Kane vs Austin in a first blood match...

This is a gimmick match as I've stated before, all of the big draw shit goes out of the window here because there is a variable to the match now.

People say this shit every year, and yet Hogan, Rikidozan, Santo - the three biggest stars of the major countries that have pro wrestling - have never won before.
Because of this gimmick round DUH!!!!!!


In the end the tournament always comes down to a popularity contest anyway.
Not really it always comes down to a wrestler that can survive in multiple environments and face adversity, or whoever has the luckiest draw. Either way not a popularity contest, because if it was Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, Cena and whoever the IWC is drooling over that month would be the only ones in the tournament.


So Austin is helpless and can't defend himself, and just lets Vader hit him? That has to be the dumbest thing I've read the entire tournament.
That's not what I said. Austin would take the fight to Vader, that's not a fight that he can win.

And yet that's exactly what Austin was known for his entire career. He'd fight big guys like Undertaker, Kane, and Big Show head on and beat them because he was an ass kicker... that was his gimmick.
He also lost to all these guys to.

And the childish card coming from the guy constantly downgrading the popularity argument, to try and justify a vote for his favorite, sounds really ignorant.

Vader's not my favorite. Logically he would win this match.

Last I checked Austin wasn't Ric Flair. Nice try though.[/QUOTE]

Bernkastel
04-03-2013, 02:21 AM
So why'd you mention Misawa? Actually I don't even care, I've realized logic isn't your strong suit.

To show that Vader was a transitional champ and a novelty at the time. I know you struggle with reading comprehension and all, but do at least try and keep up.

This is a gimmick match as I've stated before, all of the big draw shit goes out of the window here because there is a variable to the match now.

Er... no it doesn't. In fact most of the shit arguments and wanking originates from the gimmick rounds. Dress Vader up in a suit of armor, and put him in a first blood match against Austin and you'd have a valid argument. A dog collar match isn't something that would be 100% in Vader's favor - at most it's 50%.

Factor in the fact that Austin was a bigger star and presto! You've found your winner.

Not really it always comes down to a wrestler that can survive in multiple environments and face adversity, or whoever has the luckiest draw. Either way not a popularity contest, because if it was Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, Cena and whoever the IWC is drooling over that month would be the only ones in the tournament.

You are vastly underrating Austin to claim that he couldn't survive harsh environments, because he has... multiple times. Last I checked the IWC hated Hogan and Cena, and they always get pretty far. You wanna know why? Because being popular is part of defining the quality of a pro wrestler.

That's not what I said. Austin would take the fight to Vader, that's not a fight that he can win.

Based on what exactly? Austin has kicked the shit out of the Undertaker, out of Kane, and out of the Big Show. I'm not saying that Austin wouldn't take a beating, but at the end of it Austin would win. He the one that wins the big matches; Vader isn't.

He also lost to all these guys to.

He has a winning record against all three. The only gimmick match that Austin has lost that was overwhelmingly against him was a first blood match. Is this a first blood match? No? Then the stipulation isn't going to be 100% against him.

Vader's not my favorite. Logically he would win this match.

Austin's overwhelming popularity doesn't matter, but apparently Vader auto wins cuz he's big. Shit argument indeed.

Tastycles
04-03-2013, 04:06 AM
People seem to think that voting for Austin based on his superior popularity is flawed. It isn't.

The purpose of the gimmick matches, in my mind, is to differentiate between close matches and to make the later rounds more interesting. Take Savage vs Warrior. In most contexts, Warrior would lose, but in the match they have, he's winning. Take Angle vs Sting. That one could have gone either way, but the last time I checked, Sting was dominating.

Vader vs Stone Cold, the stipulation is irrelevant because Steve Austin is such the superior wrestler to Vader that it beggars belief that intelligent wrestling posters think that Austin would ever lose this.

Vader was a journeyman. That is a fact. Austin has made more money for his company than any other wrestler in history, thanks to ratings, PPVs and merchandise. That is a fact.

There is not a booker in the world that would kick Austin out now, for Vader to go on and face Bruno Sammartino, who I don't doubt has absolutely no chance in the next round despite having been a world champion for 10 years. What use is that when you're as popular as Prince Albert in Japan?

Vader's unprofessional approach to professional wrestling never washed well with bookers, which is why he was never anywhere for very long. In his brief time in WCW, he ruptured Sting's spleen, broke a jobber's back, and both broke Foley's nose and tore his ear off. Well done. The goal in professional wrestling is to have fake fights that people want to see, Vader has consistently achieved neither of those points.

I'm absolutely tired of people bringing up Vader's stint with WCW as if it was him dominating from 1991-1993. At first, they barely used him on PPV because he wasn't a draw. He signed with them before the Great American Bash in 1990, and his debut consisted of beating Tom Zenk. HERE COMES THE MONEY.

His PPV record from then on was as follows:

Halloween Havoc 1990 - not on the card
Starrcade 1990 - not on the card
WrestleWar 1991 - 7th match of ten, 6 minutes, double DQ vs Stan Hansen
WCW/New Japan Supershow I - The man who is "huge in Japan" gets a dark tag team match victory
SuperBrawl I - not on the card
Great American Bash 1991 - not on the card
Halloween Havoc 1991 - 1st match on the card, on losing side of 8-man tag Chamber of Horrors, 12 minutes, late replacement for Barry Windham.
Starrcade 1991 - This was the battle bowl show, he was in it, and lasted a long time in the first ring. Not so long in the second ring.
WCW/New Japan Supershow II - 4th match out of 7, 5 minutes, double DQ vs El Gigante
SuperBrawl II - not on the card
WrestleWar 1992 - not on the card
Beach Blast 1992 - not on the card
The Great American Bash 1992 - Beats Sting to win WCW Championship, but the main event is for the NWA Tag Team Championships
Halloween Havoc 1992 - 3rd match of 7, win vs Nikita Koloff, 11 minutes
Starrcade 1992 - another battle bowl, makes it to the final, doesn't feature in the result
WCW/New Japan SuperShow III - not on the card
SuperBrawl III - his first PPV main event, strap match vs Sting.
Slamboree 1993 - main event, DQ loss vs. Davey Boy Smith for WCW title
Beach Blast 1993 - main event tag team w/ Sid Vicious, loss to Davey Boy and Sting
Fall Brawl 1993 - main event, War games 4 vs 4, loses to a team featuring The Shockmaster
Halloween Havoc 1993 - main event, wins Texas Death match vs Cactus Jack
Battlebowl - wins main event
Starrcade 1993 - main event, loses to Ric Flair
SuperBrawl IV - main event, loses to Ric Flair
Spring Stampede 1994 - 8th match of 9, 9 minutes, beats The Boss
Slamboree 1994 - main event, loses to Sting
Bash at the Beach 1994 - 2nd match of 6, 8 minutes, DQ win vs The Guardian Angel
Fall Brawl 1994 - 8th match of 9, 30 minutes, beats Sting and The Guardian Angel in a triangle match
Halloween Havoc 1994 - 6th match of 8, 8 minutes, beats The Guardian Angel
Starrcade 1994 - curtain jerker, 12 minuted, wins US title off Jim Duggan
SuperBrawl V - main event, DQ loss to Hulk Hogan
Uncensored 1995 - main event, loses strap match vs Hogan
Slamboree 1995 - main event, tag match w/ Ric Flair, lost to Mega Powers
Great American Bash 1995 - not on card
Bash at the Beach 1995 - main event, loss to Hogan

What we can see from that is, rather than being "dominant from 1991 - 1993", he was barely used. When he did become a big deal, in 1993-4, he beat Sting, but also lost to him, lost to a number of big names, and had a lot of wins against The Big Bossman. Ooooh. In IC25's "dominant" 1991-1993 run, Vader featured on fewer WCW PPVs than Steve Austin.

As for Austin's loss to Vega, it is completely irrelevant for three reasons. 1) That was a four corners strap match - as was Vader's win over Sting, and the way Vader won would completely not help him here. 2) Austin said afterwards that he had lost on purpose to get rid of DiBiase 3) This was before Austin broke his neck and was still more of a technician than later in his career. As I said in my first post, technicians need separation, brawlers don't. Austin's prime was a totally different wrestler to before his Owen Hart match.

ShawnDiscipleSmith
04-04-2013, 07:29 AM
Uncensored 1995 - main event, loses strap match vs Hogan


No disrespect intended, I like your debating style... Do you even remember this event?

Hulk Hogan (with The Renegade) defeated Vader (with Ric Flair) in a Leather Strap match (18:21)
Hogan's WCW World Heavyweight Championship was not on the line.
Before the show, Jimmy Hart had been kidnapped and tied up at an undisclosed location by Vader and Flair. During the match Hart escaped and joined Renegade at ringside.
Hogan was given the win when he dragged an interfering Ric Flair and touched all four turnbuckles (despite Flair not being the legal opponent in the match).

It made Botchamania.

Just saying, Hogan didn't beat Vader in the strap match. He attached Flair to the strap instead and beat him. Vader even runs back into the ring a second too late to attack Hogan after the decision, to keep him looking strong...

I gotta vote Vader here in case of a tie breaker. The point was made that Stone Cold's prime came undoubtedly after his neck was broken and repaired, and Vader in his prime, the stiff, tough, bully of a superheavyweight has the exact tools needed to take out Stone Cold in this one-off.

Offical vote in case of tiebreak: Vader

Tastycles
04-04-2013, 10:34 AM
No disrespect intended, I like your debating style... Do you even remember this event?

Hulk Hogan (with The Renegade) defeated Vader (with Ric Flair) in a Leather Strap match (18:21)
Hogan's WCW World Heavyweight Championship was not on the line.
Before the show, Jimmy Hart had been kidnapped and tied up at an undisclosed location by Vader and Flair. During the match Hart escaped and joined Renegade at ringside.
Hogan was given the win when he dragged an interfering Ric Flair and touched all four turnbuckles (despite Flair not being the legal opponent in the match).

It made Botchamania.

He still won, perhaps I shouldn't have bolded it, but he still won.


The point was made that Stone Cold's prime came undoubtedly after his neck was broken and repaired, and Vader in his prime, the stiff, tough, bully of a superheavyweight has the exact tools needed to take out Stone Cold in this one-off.

Offical vote in case of tiebreak: Vader

This keeps coming up, but how many times ever did Austin lose a match because of his neck? He even fucking won the one he broke it in!

IrishCanadian25
04-04-2013, 11:22 AM
People seem to think that voting for Austin based on his superior popularity is flawed. It isn't.

The purpose of the gimmick matches, in my mind, is to differentiate between close matches and to make the later rounds more interesting. Take Savage vs Warrior. In most contexts, Warrior would lose, but in the match they have, he's winning. Take Angle vs Sting. That one could have gone either way, but the last time I checked, Sting was dominating.

Vader vs Stone Cold, the stipulation is irrelevant because Steve Austin is such the superior wrestler to Vader that it beggars belief that intelligent wrestling posters think that Austin would ever lose this.

Vader was a journeyman. That is a fact. Austin has made more money for his company than any other wrestler in history, thanks to ratings, PPVs and merchandise. That is a fact.

There is not a booker in the world that would kick Austin out now, for Vader to go on and face Bruno Sammartino, who I don't doubt has absolutely no chance in the next round despite having been a world champion for 10 years. What use is that when you're as popular as Prince Albert in Japan?

Vader's unprofessional approach to professional wrestling never washed well with bookers, which is why he was never anywhere for very long. In his brief time in WCW, he ruptured Sting's spleen, broke a jobber's back, and both broke Foley's nose and tore his ear off. Well done. The goal in professional wrestling is to have fake fights that people want to see, Vader has consistently achieved neither of those points.

I'm absolutely tired of people bringing up Vader's stint with WCW as if it was him dominating from 1991-1993. At first, they barely used him on PPV because he wasn't a draw. He signed with them before the Great American Bash in 1990, and his debut consisted of beating Tom Zenk. HERE COMES THE MONEY.

His PPV record from then on was as follows:

Halloween Havoc 1990 - not on the card
Starrcade 1990 - not on the card
WrestleWar 1991 - 7th match of ten, 6 minutes, double DQ vs Stan Hansen
WCW/New Japan Supershow I - The man who is "huge in Japan" gets a dark tag team match victory
SuperBrawl I - not on the card
Great American Bash 1991 - not on the card
Halloween Havoc 1991 - 1st match on the card, on losing side of 8-man tag Chamber of Horrors, 12 minutes, late replacement for Barry Windham.
Starrcade 1991 - This was the battle bowl show, he was in it, and lasted a long time in the first ring. Not so long in the second ring.
WCW/New Japan Supershow II - 4th match out of 7, 5 minutes, double DQ vs El Gigante
SuperBrawl II - not on the card
WrestleWar 1992 - not on the card
Beach Blast 1992 - not on the card
The Great American Bash 1992 - Beats Sting to win WCW Championship, but the main event is for the NWA Tag Team Championships
Halloween Havoc 1992 - 3rd match of 7, win vs Nikita Koloff, 11 minutes
Starrcade 1992 - another battle bowl, makes it to the final, doesn't feature in the result
WCW/New Japan SuperShow III - not on the card
SuperBrawl III - his first PPV main event, strap match vs Sting.
Slamboree 1993 - main event, DQ loss vs. Davey Boy Smith for WCW title
Beach Blast 1993 - main event tag team w/ Sid Vicious, loss to Davey Boy and Sting
Fall Brawl 1993 - main event, War games 4 vs 4, loses to a team featuring The Shockmaster
Halloween Havoc 1993 - main event, wins Texas Death match vs Cactus Jack
Battlebowl - wins main event
Starrcade 1993 - main event, loses to Ric Flair
SuperBrawl IV - main event, loses to Ric Flair
Spring Stampede 1994 - 8th match of 9, 9 minutes, beats The Boss
Slamboree 1994 - main event, loses to Sting
Bash at the Beach 1994 - 2nd match of 6, 8 minutes, DQ win vs The Guardian Angel
Fall Brawl 1994 - 8th match of 9, 30 minutes, beats Sting and The Guardian Angel in a triangle match
Halloween Havoc 1994 - 6th match of 8, 8 minutes, beats The Guardian Angel
Starrcade 1994 - curtain jerker, 12 minuted, wins US title off Jim Duggan
SuperBrawl V - main event, DQ loss to Hulk Hogan
Uncensored 1995 - main event, loses strap match vs Hogan
Slamboree 1995 - main event, tag match w/ Ric Flair, lost to Mega Powers
Great American Bash 1995 - not on card
Bash at the Beach 1995 - main event, loss to Hogan

.

Just a quick note on the 1991-1992 "not on card" info, which, by the way, is excellent research and clearly shows the level of effort we are used to from Tastycles. While I despise his anti-Vader vitriol, I respect his efforts, techniques, and intelligence.

Vader was not full time with WCW in the early early 90's (following his demolition of Zenk) as he was still wrestling in Japan, and in many cases, still defending a World Title over there. Again, Austin never had that problem, because Austin wasn't a star anywhere besides North America unless he was cheered on a WWE tour.

You can't legitimately expect Vader to wrestle the schedule he did in Japan as their world champion AND be on every card or factor in every title match for the 2nd largest promotion in the US. You just can't.

Tastycles
04-04-2013, 12:16 PM
Vader was not full time with WCW in the early early 90's (following his demolition of Zenk) as he was still wrestling in Japan, and in many cases, still defending a World Title over there. Again, Austin never had that problem, because Austin wasn't a star anywhere besides North America unless he was cheered on a WWE tour.

What an utterly bizarre point of view. Here is a complete list of countries where WWE was not 100% definitely the most popular wrestling company during Austin's prime:

Mexico
Japan

Why on Earth would he go and wrestle for 1PW in Guildford Lesiure Centre, when he could wrestle at London Arena with the WWE? Or the equivalent for the other 100+ countries he wrestled in.



You can't legitimately expect Vader to wrestle the schedule he did in Japan as their world champion AND be on every card or factor in every title match for the 2nd largest promotion in the US. You just can't.

And I don't expect him to. It's not an argument of Vader wasn't there, he must be shit, its an argument of he wasn't there, how could he be dominant. If you came in here and said Austin was barely on a WWF card in 2000, that would be true and it would have an equally valid reason. The difference is I'm not saying that Stone Cold was dominant in WWF in 2000, the Vader supporters are saying he was in WCW in 1991-92, which is blatantly not the case.

George Steele's Barber
04-04-2013, 12:32 PM
I pretty much ignored this thread seeing it as a waste of time. Skipping Raw1000 and the 20 year Raw anniversary has really had a negative effect on Austin's career over the past year.

Here is what happens:

Austin is booked to win here. He is a much bigger star regardless of the location. The match goes as expected, a lot of back and forth, Vader reaches a point where he begins to make the fans uncomfortable by going at Austin's neck with the collar, it seems the stipulation is too much for Austin to handle, Austin tries to attack the ropes to hit a Lou Thez press but Vader's weight is too much, more of a beatdown on Austin by Vader until he gets a little cocky. Austin starts hitting punches, pushes up Vader's head, kicks Vader in his big gut and "Stunner! Stunner! Stunner!". Vader in his carelessness oversells snapping Austin's injured neck and knocking him unconcious. Shark Boy gets on the phone to offer to finish the match but the promoter signals to the referee that Vader should pick up the win so he is guaranteed another match next round.

Owen Hart and sloppy wrestling wins. Frankie Stechino celebrates with his dad.