"The Death of WCW"

[Slyfox696]

I bought the book The Death of WCW yesterday, and read it today. If you've read the book, feel free to post your feelings on it.

A few things that I came away with...

1) Everyone who bashes Russo for "____ on a pole match", needs to realize that this type of match was going on long before Russo was in wrestling, as mentioned by the turkey on the pole match in the early days of WCW.

2) Ric Flair must have been a ghost writer for this book, because reading it you would think that Ric Flair was the absolute greatest thing to ever hit pro wrestling. His faults are excused away, his successes are over glorified, and his importance to the business is over exaggerated. And, I don't even mean over exaggerated in my opinion, I mean over exaggerated with regards to cold hard facts. You would think that Ric Flair sits at the right hand of the Father, instead of Jesus Christ.

3) Hulk Hogan must have refused to sign an autograph for the other writers, because he is blamed and criticized constantly for every thing that went wrong, given absolutely no credit for anything that went right, and painted to be the worst human being in professional wrestling. The irony is how the writers criticize him for his politics, and conveniently ignore Flair's use of politics in the early WCW days.

4) Despite the nearly 100 pages of explaining every thing that Eric Bischoff did incredibly wrong and stupid, detailing the illogical booking and incredibly stupid promoting, the blame for the death of WCW was placed squarely upon Vince Russo and Jamie Kellner. A ridiculous assertion, and one that seems to be contradicted by nearly half of the book.

5) Despite these shortcomings, this is a very very good read. It fully portrays all the idiocies that occurred in WCW, even from the very beginning of its existence. While it does sometimes bog down, and take personal bias as means for criticism with regards to quality of storylines/angles, it does present a very intriguing look into WCW.

If you can read the book and put aside the blatant and obvious bias which severely hurt the credibility of the authors, then you are in for a very interesting read.

If any one else has read it, please place your comments about it and your thoughts here.

[justinsayne]

I bought the book The Death of WCW yesterday, and read it today. If you've read the book, feel free to post your feelings on it.

A few things that I came away with...

1) Everyone who bashes Russo for "____ on a pole match", needs to realize that this type of match was going on long before Russo was in wrestling, as mentioned by the turkey on the pole match in the early days of WCW.

2) Ric Flair must have been a ghost writer for this book, because reading it you would think that Ric Flair was the absolute greatest thing to ever hit pro wrestling. His faults are excused away, his successes are over glorified, and his importance to the business is over exaggerated. And, I don't even mean over exaggerated in my opinion, I mean over exaggerated with regards to cold hard facts. You would think that Ric Flair sits at the right hand of the Father, instead of Jesus Christ.

3) Hulk Hogan must have refused to sign an autograph for the other writers, because he is blamed and criticized constantly for every thing that went wrong, given absolutely no credit for anything that went right, and painted to be the worst human being in professional wrestling. The irony is how the writers criticize him for his politics, and conveniently ignore Flair's use of politics in the early WCW days.

4) Despite the nearly 100 pages of explaining every thing that Eric Bischoff did incredibly wrong and stupid, detailing the illogical booking and incredibly stupid promoting, the blame for the death of WCW was placed squarely upon Vince Russo and Jamie Kellner. A ridiculous assertion, and one that seems to be contradicted by nearly half of the book.

5) Despite these shortcomings, this is a very very good read. It fully portrays all the idiocies that occurred in WCW, even from the very beginning of its existence. While it does sometimes bog down, and take personal bias as means for criticism with regards to quality of storylines/angles, it does present a very intriguing look into WCW.

If you can read the book and put aside the blatant and obvious bias which severely hurt the credibility of the authors, then you are in for a very interesting read.

If any one else has read it, please place your comments about it and your thoughts here.

If you can read Sly's post and put aside the blatant and obvious bias which severely hurt the credibility of the poster, then you are in for a very interesting read.









J/K Sly:p

[Slyfox696]

If you can read Sly's post and put aside the blatant and obvious bias which severely hurt the credibility of the poster, then you are in for a very interesting read.









J/K Sly:p:lmao:

If I could green rep you for that, I would.

Even if I was a Flair supporter and a Hogan basher, there is no way I could justify some of the positions taken. Have you read it?

[Big Beck-ah Roethlisberger]

I've read excerpts from this book ,and Bishoff's. If i remember correctly, Bischoff and and this book tells two different stories.One blames Russo, and one blames Bisch, by reading articles Bisch was gone before WCW started to tank and everything was given to Russo, thats when i thought WCW crashed. So how is Bisch to blame? Yeah, i also thought it was funny how Flair was praised and Hogan was crapped on at every opportunity. Funny IMO.

I thought it was Russo who killed WCW?

[Lil Wes]

It was.

[justinsayne]

:lmao:

If I could green rep you for that, I would.

Even if I was a Flair supporter and a Hogan basher, there is no way I could justify some of the positions taken. Have you read it?

Nope, don't read alot of Wrestling books, read Rocks, and Foley's first one, but that's about it...I've read bits and pieces of other wrestlers books, but none of them have ever really had me that interested

[Big Beck-ah Roethlisberger]

It was.

I still blame Bisch.

[Slyfox696]

I've read excerpts from this book ,and Bishoff's. If i remember correctly, Bischoff and and this book tells two different stories.One blames Russo, and one blames Bisch, by reading articles Bisch was gone before WCW started to tank and everything was given to Russo, thats when i thought WCW crashed. So how is Bisch to blame? Yeah, i also thought it was funny how Flair was praised and Hogan was crapped on at every opportunity. Funny IMO.

I thought it was Russo who killed WCW?

Bischoff was very much there when things began tanking. Basically, WCW was in the grave when they fired Bischoff, and Russo just helped pile the dirt on. WCW was in worse shape than when Bischoff took over, which is astounding considering just a year and a half previous, WCW experienced their greatest profit ever.

[Lil Wes]

Explain.

[Slyfox696]

It was.
No, it wasn't. It was Eric Bischoff's incredibly moronic booking, lapses in logic, stupid contracts, refusal to push wrestlers, and his belief that the nWo angle should run forever.

[Slyfox696]

Explain.
I already did.

[Big Beck-ah Roethlisberger]

No, it wasn't. It was Eric Bischoff's incredibly moronic booking, lapses in logic, stupid contracts, refusal to push wrestlers, and his belief that the nWo angle should run forever.

even when they are old and in wheelchairs? gosh i hope not, Nash was awful. Maybe with a set of wheels he could be better? :cool:

[Slyfox696]

even when they are old and in wheelchairs? gosh i hope not, Nash was awful. Maybe with a set of wheels he could be better? :cool:Let's put it this way.

The second biggest draw in wrestling in 1998 was Bill Goldberg, who the WCW lucked upon. After winning the WCW title in June, on a show which won WCW the ratings war for the night, and featured 40,000 people going absolutely nuts (of course, this show was on free TV, and not PPV, where WCW could have made serious money), Goldberg is relegated to the upper midcard as the champion...

...then, the second biggest draw in wrestling, who is riding the most famous undefeated streak ever, is defeated by Kevin Nash at Starrcade for the title. This win and title meant so much to Kevin Nash, he was willing to lay down to the Fingerpoke of Doom a week later.

So, let's see...top draw in the undercard, biggest win streak ever ended by a 40+ year old wrestler, and that 2nd biggest draw is ruined when the guy who beat him lays down to a fingerpoke.


Yes, that was some of Eric's finest work.

[Lil Wes]

Ok never mind. I'm with Sly on this one. That was some pitiful shit.

Russo was shit though. No denying that.

[Big Beck-ah Roethlisberger]

actually i was with him the entire way. I was trying to get his opinion, because you said Russo destroyed WCW. :lmao: :p

[Slyfox696]

Ok never mind. I'm with Sly on this one. That was some pitiful shit. Oh, there are a TON of examples of how piss poor Eric Bischoff booked, and how it literally drove WCW to death. that's just one of my favorites.

Russo was shit though. No denying that.No doubt. Russo's booking of WCW was every bit as bad as Eric Bischoff's.

[Lil Wes]

He had alot to do with it Brian.

How much is this book BTW?

[Slyfox696]

He had alot to do with it Brian.

How much is this book BTW?I paid $19 for it. Not really worth it, if you can find it in a library, I SERIOUSLY recommend that. But, short of that, it's worth $20 as much as any wrestling book I've read.

[Big Beck-ah Roethlisberger]

He had alot to do with it Brian.

How much is this book BTW?

a lot to do with it after it was already tanking.. :)

[Steamboat Ricky]

I've heard that Nash said in an interview that Goldberg is largely to blame because he tore up his hand. He called Goldberg "the Yankees" in that everyone was tired of him losing...so they take the belt from him in a heat-attracting fashion, and then the storyline would repeat. Goldberg v. nWo over and over.

I think this opinion is folly, as the nWo pretty much broke up after the Flair heel turn in early 99. What are some opinions on that?

[Shadowmancer]

Bischoff helped Kill the AWA. And he brought WCW up to the peak, he just didn't know how to keep on the crest or to plateau out. Therefore it is logical for the ratings and profits to decrease. after the high. Simply Put.

WCW was like Cocaine or Heroine, gives you a Big High but big time drop after the High.

[Esteban Ochocinco]

I didn't think it was that bad of a read, and agree with Sly with the overly positive Ric Flair talk and the overly negative Hogan talk.

Bischoff had a good thing going, but WCW died when they fucked up Starrcade 97. How in the holy fucking hell did WCW blow the best storyline of the last 20 years. This botchery lost all of WCW's credibility and still pisses me off to this day, damn you WCW.

[Lil Wes]

That was all Hogan..:lmao:

Typical Huckster.

[Colamania]

That was all Hogan..:lmao:

Typical Huckster.

The Nacho Man! Greatest skits ever, those Billionaire Ted things were genius.

[Lil Wes]

I should make a thread for them. They were classics.

[Steamboat Ricky]

I didn't think it was that bad of a read, and agree with Sly with the overly positive Ric Flair talk and the overly negative Hogan talk.

Bischoff had a good thing going, but WCW died when they fucked up Starrcade 97. How in the holy fucking hell did WCW blow the best storyline of the last 20 years. This botchery lost all of WCW's credibility and still pisses me off to this day, damn you WCW.


I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but could you elaborate on what specifically WCW botched regarding Starrcade 97? And specifically what did it have that had it riding high before the event? Hogan-Sting by itself?

[Lil Wes]

They made Sting's win look like a fluke because Hogan didn't want to "hurt" his character. He wouldn't do the clean job because he is a dick.

[Slyfox696]

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but could you elaborate on what specifically WCW botched regarding Starrcade 97? And specifically what did it have that had it riding high before the event? Hogan-Sting by itself?
I will.

Before we begin, it's important to remember one thing. Bret Hart had just come to WCW, riding a HUGE wave of momentum, thanks to the Montreal Screwjob incident. WCW had the biggest free agent of the Monday Night Wars, the man who was going to bankrupt Vince McMahon...and promptly did NOTHING with him. They wasted him. Completely. One of the greatest wrestlers of his time, and he never got in the ring. He did nothing. Because of him doing nothing, he was randomly put as the special enforcer for the Sting vs. Hogan match. This is important to remember.

From nearly the very moment the nWo arrived, they were booked as completely dominant, and generally better than WCW. They ran through the entire WCW roster, making just about everyone on the roster look inferior to the nWo.

Except for one man. Sting.

Sting was the lone WCW guy whom the nWo feared. He was the lone guy they couldn't get to cross over to their side. Sting was the one man who had the nWo's number. And, at Starrcade vs. Hulk Hogan, Sting, the savior of WCW, the man who wrestling fans all over the world were salivating to give Hogan his due, was finally going to step in the ring, and WCW was going to triumph once and for all. Starrcade 1997 was the PPV where WCW was finally going to put the nWo down once and for all. It was the most hyped and most anticipated PPV since Wrestlemania 6. WCW was finally going to prevail.

Except they didn't. Time and again, the nWo escaped getting their come uppance. Time and again, WCW couldn't take advantage of the nWo. But, it really didn't matter because Sting was still coming at the end to save the show, and WCW.

Except he didn't. From the opening bell, Hogan generally dominated Sting. He generally took Sting to task, and Sting, who regularly took out 10 members of the nWo single handily, suddenly couldn't take down one man. Sting's offense was minimal. Finally, they come to the biggest botch in history.

Hogan bounces off the rope and hits his Atomic Legdrop. Nick Patrick gets down, and counts. 1-2-3. Sting was legitimately pinned, and the fans were stunned. But, there was a catch. Bret Hart, who was the special enforcer in a desperate attempt to have him do something to earn his $3 million dollar a year paycheck, kept the bell from being rang, and said over a piss poor mic that he was screwed last month and that he wouldn't let someone else get screwed tonight. The problem with this was that no one got screwed. Nick Patrick was supposed to have done a fast count, but did not fast count at all. In fact, it was a normal count. However, the show had to go on, so alleging a fast count, Bret Hart restarted the match. Meanwhile, the entire time this had gone on, Sting had been layed out. Suddenly, he gets up, hits a couple of moves, and wins the title.

The problem was that Sting's win had already been ruined, and the legitimacy of his win was severely in doubt. Instead of having Sting come out, kick the holy hell out of Hogan's ass, and get a win which would cause the crowd to go absolutely bonkers, they instead had a match which killed the crowd, where Sting got pinned cleanly, and then picked up a win in a rematch he shouldn't have had.

It was terrible booking, and ruined over a year's worth of storylines. And, the buyrate for Starrcade was enormous, indicating how much people were ready for Sting to come in and be a complete badass, and it didn't happen.

It was the beginning of the end of WCW.

[Esteban Ochocinco]

In a nut shell, the whole of WCW and every major storyline circled around WCW vs. the NWO, and Sting vs. Hogan at the epicenter. This match should have ended the NWO and left it disbanded for ever, and honestly, it should have probably been Hogan's last match in the main event in my opinion. Sting should have carried the torch and ultimately drop the belt to Goldberg the next year. Sly will go into more detail, but that's my opinion.

[Steamboat Ricky]

First of all Sly...thanks for the entire Tony Schiavone-esque play-by-play of the entire Starrcade 97 main event. I know what happened. :) But the commentary was nice. I think it could have worked, had Patrick done a fast count and had Sting and Hogan battled legitimately at the end. But your desire for a Sting domination would have been very satisfying.

In a nut shell, the whole of WCW and every major storyline circled around WCW vs. the NWO, and Sting vs. Hogan at the epicenter. This match should have ended the NWO and left it disbanded for ever, and honestly, it should have probably been Hogan's last match in the main event in my opinion. Sting should have carried the torch and ultimately drop the belt to Goldberg the next year. Sly will go into more detail, but that's my opinion.

Woah woah woah woah woah.

You're telling me that WCW should have disbanded nWo forever? Seriously? The faction that single-handedly brought Vince to his knees? Hmmmmmmm. I think that would have been a major-league disaster. WCW would have been out of business WAY before 2002.

nWo was the most impactful stable in wrestling history. It made WCW legitimate and pulled the brand into the non-wrestling mainstream. Every day at school, some kid would be wearing an nWo t-shirt. Marketing gem.

Sting win cleanly and dominantly? Yeah. But then have nWo go back after Sting and punish him the way that the nWo had done to everyone else. THEN, bring Goldberg into the mix to strike fear into the nWo.

[Esteban Ochocinco]

I believe in less is more with professional wrestling. You ride somethign while it's hot, but you don't run it into the ground. Why did people crave a DX reunion nearly ten years later, because at the height of its best run, Shawn Michaels was injured and left people wanting more. The NWO had a good 18 month run, but there were just as many members as there were months of existence. The NWO by that time had run it's course and people needed a break. Instead, the botch of Starrcade happens, and the nWo splits in half. What's even more ridiculous, Sting and Luger join a version of the nWo after fighting it for almost two years.

[Slyfox696]

First of all Sly...thanks for the entire Tony Schiavone-esque play-by-play of the entire Starrcade 97 main event. I know what happened. :) But the commentary was nice. I think it could have worked, had Patrick done a fast count and had Sting and Hogan battled legitimately at the end. But your desire for a Sting domination would have been very satisfying.The Sting domination was paramount. I mean, obviously the match couldn't have been a squash, but WCW fans were DESPERATE to have someone they could back, the good to battle against the nWo evil (remember that when I talk all the time about how wrestling is, and always will be, the battle between good and bad). WCW fans NEEDED the incredibly strong, can overcome all odds figure, because they had seen the nWo do it for so long.

WCW botched that match, and botched it bad.



Woah woah woah woah woah.

You're telling me that WCW should have disbanded nWo forever? Seriously? The faction that single-handedly brought Vince to his knees? Hmmmmmmm. I think that would have been a major-league disaster. WCW would have been out of business WAY before 2002.WCW kept the nWo around and was STILL out of business WAY before 2002. They were bought in March of 2001. ;)

nWo was the most impactful stable in wrestling history. It made WCW legitimate and pulled the brand into the non-wrestling mainstream. Every day at school, some kid would be wearing an nWo t-shirt. Marketing gem.

Sting win cleanly and dominantly? Yeah. But then have nWo go back after Sting and punish him the way that the nWo had done to everyone else. THEN, bring Goldberg into the mix to strike fear into the nWo.The problem with this was that Goldberg was actually a diamond in the rough. They didn't know the man would catch fire so quickly and so fully. But, Sting, on the other hand, they groomed for a year and a half to be like that.

What's amazing is how they botched not one, but TWO, chances to have a super babyface mega draw. First Sting, and then Goldberg.

And then people want to tell me that Russo was responsible for WCW's death. It's ridiculous.

[Valthonis79]

I personally agree with BOTH Sides of the argument. I do believe that Eric and Russo BOTH killed WCW..why do i think that. yes from the moment that Scott hall showed up on Nitro everyone knew we were in for a show, the heel turn of the century of hogan was masterful. but they screwed up the nwo by letting ANYONE that wanted in..in.they should have stoped at 10 people most just enough to control all the divisons.

Then the Starcade debacles two years running and Eric was out..Russo in to save, and he should have after everything him and Ferara(spelling??) helped do in WWE they should have easily fixed most of the problems but they droped the ball, with all the reformations of the nwo, millionaires club, new blood...so on so forth. they should have just got back to the basics and got away from the dominating supergroups and left teams at two or three max. no to mention get the likes of Hogan, Flair, Hall, Nash, and the other old goats out of the main events.



so basicly how is see the death of W.C.W. is this Eric Bishoff loaded the gun yes....but Vince Russo was the dumb @$$ that pulled the trigger. <BR><BR>